Capitalism or Socialism?

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

GeoFee

I am who I am becoming...
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
4,428
Listening to other perspectives presented here I am sensing that human being may be best served by a balanced relationship of socialism and capitalism. Each offering opportunity for personal and collective well being.
 

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
19,606
Assuming that we might all agree that capitalism REQUIRES the charging of interest on loans. Also that Jesus was Jewish, a religion which believed then, at least, that while they could not charge interest of those who shared their religion, charging interest to Gentiles was acceptable.

Would focusing on those two assumptions change your opinion of "capitalism" versus other systems?
 

Ritafee

Is Being Human
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
8,347
Location
Manitoba
Was the mission of Jesus to support/institutionalize the religion he was born into or to deinstitutionalize/reform it?
 
Last edited:

Ritafee

Is Being Human
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
8,347
Location
Manitoba
“The fact that Jesus weeps and that he is moved in spirit and troubled contrasts remarkably with the dominant culture. That is not the way of power, and it is scarcely the way among those who intend to maintain firm social control. But in [John 11:33-35] Jesus is engaged not in social control but in dismantling the power of death, and he does so by submitting himself to the pain and grief present in the situation, the very pain and grief that the dominant society must deny.”
― Walter Brueggemann, quote from The Prophetic Imagination
 

Ritafee

Is Being Human
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
8,347
Location
Manitoba
Assuming that we might all agree that capitalism REQUIRES the charging of interest on loans.
Money becomes necessary when the range of our gifts must extend beyond the people we know personally.

Decentralized gift networks gave way to centralized systems of redistribution, with the 'temple/bank' as the hub.

Contributions became forced and quantified, and outward disbursement became unequal.

On the one hand money is properly a token of gratitude and trust, an agent of the meeting of gifts and needs.

As such it should make us all richer.

Yet it does not.

Instead, it has brought insecurity, poverty, and the liquidation of our cultural and natural commons.

Why?

Usury, better known as interest, is the very antithesis of the gift.

Instead of giving to others when one has more than one needs ...

Usury seeks to use the power of ownership to gain even more ... to take from others rather than to give.

Money created [by Federal Reserve] accompanies a corresponding debt.

The debt is always far more than the amount of money actually created.

Usury both generates today’s endemic scarcity and drives the world-devouring engine of perpetual growth.

To make new money to keep the whole system going we have to create more “goods and services”...

By selling something that was once free.

Completing the vicious circle, the more of life we convert into money, the more we need money to live.

Usury, not money, is the proverbial root of all evil.

 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
3,689
Well, if Biden wins the election, you guys (socialists/communists) are going to get to see first hand what those ideologies really look like. Trump is all that is keeping us from being swallowed by the globalist agenda.

The great reset. It can’t happen when the world superpower still believes in freedom.

Covid is just like global warming. Designed to make everyone broke, then dependent on government, who will overspend looking after you till it is broke. Then you can eat your pets and lose your homes. And wander around the romantic way George likes, on foot or if you are lucky on a horse. Till someone kills you because they want to eat your horse.

Then 8 billion people die. Started by a fake epidemic and lies about sea levels rising.

It’s already well underway. Airlines are dying. Small and medium businesses are dying. More lockdowns.

There will be some Stalinlike World leader.

look up the great reset. They make it sound good. Like the great place Jews were going to when loaded on trains.

If Biden wins, they will take away guns and kill all who resist

Then the reset. AOC’s knock down all inefficient houses and replace them with green ones. Your house is next, hop on this train and we will bring you back when we’ve made it green.

I’m glad I know how it turns out.

Of course if Trump wins, 4 more years of LLeft setting stuff impatiently on fire because Armageddon can’t come soon enough.

Both good and evil racing toward the return of Jesus.
 

GeoFee

I am who I am becoming...
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
4,428
Reading your notions about the right hand being right and the left hand being wrong puzzles me. The language seems rooted in the principle of division. Each party accusing the other of costly error. This being among my primary reasons for stepping out of the political process.
 

Ritafee

Is Being Human
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
8,347
Location
Manitoba
My 'Commons' sense informs me that global resources such as air, land, water and biodiversity do not belong to one political 'party' or another any more than they belong to any one community or individual or another.

Global 'Commons' belong to humanity as a whole and if left or right comes into it ... the whole brain needs to be activated not just the left or the right of it.

Trump or Biden alone are not evil in and of themselves ... the system that they are in service to is the evil that Jesus reviled.

I am with Pontifex on the evil that is embodied in the 'Great Reset' agenda ... the road to hell paved with artificial good intentions is at the crux of that BEAST.
 
Last edited:

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
48,899
My 'Commons' sense informs me that global resources such as air, land, water and biodiversity do not belong to one political 'party' or another any more than they belong to any one community or individual or another.

Global 'Commons' belong to humanity as a whole and if left or right comes into it ... the whole brain needs to be activated not just the left or the right of it.

Trump or Biden alone are not evil in and of themselves ... the system that they are in service to is the evil that Jesus reviled.

I am with Pontifex on the evil that is embodied in the 'Great Reset' agenda ... the road to hell paved with artificial good intentions is at the crux of that BEAST.

This too can be marketed ... and people will buy into it ... to associate with power! Thus the crack in fair trade as just too khol ... and darkly mysterious as we don't know what the powerful agenda is ...

Some Moor to look into ...
 

Ritafee

Is Being Human
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
8,347
Location
Manitoba
Amen!
Since the nineties I have seen a constant dismantling of the public sector here in Oz, replaced by the private sector, that has made the cost of basic utilities more expensive for the consumer. And, even more alarming, if the private corporation doesn't make enough profit - guess what - the government bails them out with taxpayer money. It's a corporate con......
Like this ... $30m security contract awarded to a non vetted Sydney company by text?
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
48,899
It appears there are extremes and exceptions everywhere ... even in the differences between capitalism, communism and moderate socialism as a means of balance between tyrants of differing orders of magnitude ... missing magda-LA? Post hole ... it follows ... always the dark and gamma's list ... its phi Anne indelibles as inky ... tis phinkterre as rendered!
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
422
Pontifax Geronimo, I am puzzled by your claims about Biden's agenda. Much of what you said is the objective of the people behind the Tea Party movement that took over the Republican Party. The only freedom they want is for the wealthy.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
Messages
29,448
Location
BC
Well, if Biden wins the election, you guys (socialists/communists) are going to get to see first hand what those ideologies really look like. Trump is all that is keeping us from being swallowed by the globalist agenda.

The great reset. It can’t happen when the world superpower still believes in freedom.

Covid is just like global warming. Designed to make everyone broke, then dependent on government, who will overspend looking after you till it is broke. Then you can eat your pets and lose your homes. And wander around the romantic way George likes, on foot or if you are lucky on a horse. Till someone kills you because they want to eat your horse.

Then 8 billion people die. Started by a fake epidemic and lies about sea levels rising.

It’s already well underway. Airlines are dying. Small and medium businesses are dying. More lockdowns.

There will be some Stalinlike World leader.

look up the great reset. They make it sound good. Like the great place Jews were going to when loaded on trains.

If Biden wins, they will take away guns and kill all who resist

Then the reset. AOC’s knock down all inefficient houses and replace them with green ones. Your house is next, hop on this train and we will bring you back when we’ve made it green.

I’m glad I know how it turns out.

Of course if Trump wins, 4 more years of LLeft setting stuff impatiently on fire because Armageddon can’t come soon enough.

Both good and evil racing toward the return of Jesus.
Biden is NOT a socialist. He's a neoliberal hawk not much different from the Bushes (maybe he's softened a bit in his old age - but not a socialist.). He's still better than Frump.

AOC 2024!
 

revjohn

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 26, 2014
Messages
7,372
Location
Outer Cove, NL
Can we agree that the Biblical narratives point us towards a prosperous human being?

The testimony of scripture is that Christ came so that we would have life in abundance. I think the jury is still out on what exactly that was intended to mean.

This suggests, to me, that Socialism is to be preferred over Capitalism.
I think this puts cart before horse.

Socialism and Capitalism are both subsets of materialism in that both fail because they look more to the creature than they do the Creator. At best both can be forms of stewardship which is humanity taking the materials that God has given and using them to serve the common good.

Each is corruptible by the misuse of power.

Socialism is corruptible because it applies power corporately and coercively where Christ has given particular instruction to give freely of ourselves not to take feely from others.

Capitalism is corruptible because it knows no obligation to others and resists regulations that may protect the vulnerable.

There are variations on both which may direct either to a more satisfactory service of the common good. I don't think one is inherently more faithful to the Gospel of Christ than the other primarily because neither actually starts with the Creator and the fact that everything created belongs to the Creator.

Both socialism and capitalism focus on what is "mine" or what is "ours." The Bible is pretty clear that the focus should be on what is God's.
 

GeoFee

I am who I am becoming...
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
4,428
The testimony of scripture is that Christ came so that we would have life in abundance. I think the jury is still out on what exactly that was intended to mean.


I think this puts cart before horse.

Socialism and Capitalism are both subsets of materialism in that both fail because they look more to the creature than they do the Creator. At best both can be forms of stewardship which is humanity taking the materials that God has given and using them to serve the common good.

Each is corruptible by the misuse of power.

Socialism is corruptible because it applies power corporately and coercively where Christ has given particular instruction to give freely of ourselves not to take feely from others.

Capitalism is corruptible because it knows no obligation to others and resists regulations that may protect the vulnerable.

There are variations on both which may direct either to a more satisfactory service of the common good. I don't think one is inherently more faithful to the Gospel of Christ than the other primarily because neither actually starts with the Creator and the fact that everything created belongs to the Creator.

Both socialism and capitalism focus on what is "mine" or what is "ours." The Bible is pretty clear that the focus should be on what is God's.
“The testimony of scripture is that Christ came so that we would have life in abundance. I think the jury is still out on what exactly that was intended to mean.” revjohn

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians

An itinerant, such as Jesus, who bears these qualities, expresses life abundant in and through all that person’s relations. A person possessing great material wealth, who has none of these qualities, I would consider poor.

I will respond to your other comments a little later in the day. Good to have you back in the mix!
 

revjohn

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 26, 2014
Messages
7,372
Location
Outer Cove, NL
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians
If my neighbour comes to me hungry or naked I'm going to need something slightly more material to cover that nakedness and end that hunger. I am also called to be a steward of Creation so sooner or later, our relationship with material things needs to be addressed.

One would hope that the fruits of the Spirit might inform Christians on that discussion of material things.
An itinerant, such as Jesus, who bears these qualities, expresses life abundant in and through all that person’s relations. A person possessing great material wealth, who has none of these qualities, I would consider poor.
Fair enough.
I will respond to your other comments a little later in the day. Good to have you back in the mix!
I can wait.
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
422
Rev John, do you believe our focus should be on recognizing and responding to the needs of others without worrying if it is a capitalist or socialist approach?
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
48,899
Rev John, do you believe our focus should be on recognizing and responding to the needs of others without worrying if it is a capitalist or socialist approach?

People are really divinely split on this as some would like to be ahead and leave the alternates behind! Just is the rush for corrupting power ...
 

GeoFee

I am who I am becoming...
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
4,428
If my neighbour comes to me hungry or naked I'm going to need something slightly more material to cover that nakedness and end that hunger.
All depends on sequence. For some the material takes priority over the spiritual. We see this in Constantine, Luther, Calvin, and others. This is the origin of truth reduced to ritual. Others choose spirituality as primary, with the material considered as means to fulfilling our commitment to loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. This being the material expression of our relationship with God.
 
Top