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Capitalism or Socialism?

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BetteTheRed

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I think indigenous patterns of “transportation”, “entertainment” and “markets” were in harmony with nature. Our patterns seem to be destructive of nature.

But again, we can "merge"/adapt various systems. I'll bet indigenous men enjoyed watching a game as much as a Scouser in England likes watching a football match. You walk/bike to the match, the players aren't paid a gazillion quid a year, etc.
 

Ritafee

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I'll bet indigenous men enjoyed watching a game
Speaking of games and the 'indigenous' ... Reconciliation Lacrosse?

Lacrosse has its origins in a tribal game played by eastern Woodlands Native Americans and by some Plains Indians tribes in what is now the United States of America and Canada.


Available on NetFlix ...
Based on the true story of Russ Sheppard (Ben Schnetzer), a high school teacher who moved to the town of Kugluktuk, Nunavut in 1998 to teach at a local school. When Russ arrived, the town was plagued with one of the highest rates of alcohol abuse and suicide in North America while the school Russ taught at had rampant absenteeism and substance abuse issues among its student population.


When faced with unfathomable social dysfunction, Russ started a lacrosse team.
 
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Ritafee

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But again, we can "merge"/adapt various systems.
Rather than bringing other traditions to our banquet table, the future might have us leave the table to be hosted at others.

As our capitalistic/political/economic systems putrify, will we continue to try to impose them on the rest of the earth?


Maybe we need to let go of the superiority complex, and adopt the humility necessary to relearn about folk medicine, local food systems, gift economics, experiential education, ways of ceremony and prayer, and the mindset and perceptions necessary to live in harmony with each other and the earth.

To be sure, this knowledge is not held exclusively by communities of "color", but the dominant culture we are calling “white” has long suppressed or ignored it.

It still remains in what Orland Bishop calls “cultures of memory”: indigenous, traditional, and marginalized cultures, as well as hidden lineages within the dominant culture.

Maybe Western civilization did not conquer the world after all.

The appearance of conquest is temporary.

The apparently vanquished cultures are still here, awaiting the exhaustion of our own.

Some survive in remote places, relatively intact.

Others persist among minorities who have resisted full assimilation.

Some are wrapped up within the main culture itself, imprinted onto its wisdom lineages, customs, superstitions, underclasses, and countercultures .

Even peoples that seem to have been totally extinguished bestowed seeds upon the future, suffusing the land with wisdom that may yet be recovered, ancient seeds awaiting the thousand-year flood.

These cultures of memory provide the ingredients and the cookbooks from which humanity, collectively, might prepare a true feast.

In these 'Times of Carona' I highly recommend this article:

 
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Ritafee

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health care outcomes, as measured by a pile of benchmarks, that are world class.
Approximately 400,000 Canadians and their spouses travel outside Canada for necessary health services every year – spending overall $2 M per day. As for our politicians needing health services, you won’t find them all waiting in lines – some jump on a jet and head south.

Some Canadians are healthier than others!

And not just because of their diet and lifestyle,
but because of the province in which they live.

But here's the real kicker ...

As statistics demonstrate, historic and ongoing settler colonialism has ensured that unequal access to health care, when combined with racism and other social determinants, continues to have enormous and tragic consequences on the health outcomes of Indigenous people.

 

Luce NDs

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Approximately 400,000 Canadians and their spouses travel outside Canada for necessary health services every year – spending overall $2 M per day. As for our politicians needing health services, you won’t find them all waiting in lines – some jump on a jet and head south.

Some Canadians are healthier than others!

And not just because of their diet and lifestyle,
but because of the province in which they live.

But here's the real kicker ...

As statistics demonstrate, historic and ongoing settler colonialism has ensured that unequal access to health care, when combined with racism and other social determinants, continues to have enormous and tragic consequences on the health outcomes of Indigenous people.



Recall there is a firm BS that those people deserve nothing because thye are not winning character representatives! A trumped up BS?
 

unsafe

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Ritafee ------there is a Spiritual Gift Economy

The Gospel's gift economy comes by way of Grace who is Jesus and the Gospel's gift economy is the Good News-----it is a Spiritual gift economy ----and it is given freely to those who want to listen and by listening the right Faith is inbirthed into the person -----so there is an exchange here for the people who's hearts are open by God to hear the message and have that Faith inbirthed in them -----

So true Grace comes through the right Faith in Jesus Christ --------so you can't buy Jesus or the right Faith ----it is an exchange when the Good news is preached ------

1 Corinthians 9 English Standard Version (ESV)​

Paul Surrenders His Rights​

16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship.

18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.


I say ------this is Matthew Henry's commentary on above chapter

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
9:15-23 It is the glory of a minister to deny himself, that he may serve Christ and save souls. But when a minister gives up his right for the sake of the gospel, he does more than his charge and office demands. By preaching the gospel, freely, the apostle showed that he acted from principles of zeal and love, and thus enjoyed much comfort and hope in his soul.

I say -----Here is a 9 min video on Spiritual gift economy ----this is how this guy sees it -----

 

GeoFee

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Thorstein Veblin was an economist who addressed the matter of conspicuous consumption. Included in his review is the emergence of lawns. He suggests that they are pretty much useless regarding the life we lead, intended as a symbol of status rather than a means to human benefit.

I have long wondered why we prefer lawns to gardens. Imagine a neighbourhood with vegetable gardens rather than lawns. Working cooperatively we could grow a mix of healthy food every summer. In one yard we would have potatoes. In an other yard we could have carrots. And in other yards we could grow turnips, beans, cabbage and other vegetables. Come fall we could preserve them and distribute them within the neighbourhood.

This social economy would not only provide nutrition. It would involve us with organic exercise good for our hearts, lungs and muscles. And it would strengthen our human relations.
 

Mendalla

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Thorstein Veblin was an economist who addressed the matter of conspicuous consumption. Included in his review is the emergence of lawns. He suggests that they are pretty much useless regarding the life we lead, intended as a symbol of status rather than a means to human benefit.

I have long wondered why we prefer lawns to gardens. Imagine a neighbourhood with vegetable gardens rather than lawns. Working cooperatively we could grow a mix of healthy food every summer. In one yard we would have potatoes. In an other yard we could have carrots. And in other yards we could grow turnips, beans, cabbage and other vegetables. Come fall we could preserve them and distribute them within the neighbourhood.

This social economy would not only provide nutrition. It would involve us with organic exercise good for our hearts, lungs and muscles. And it would strengthen our human relations.

I am not fond of lawns, but they are nice when kids are small. Provides a nice open space to play that isn't public. Especially important right now when public parks may have restrictions (they did here for a while in any case). But, frankly, my lawn is a bit of a weed bed the last couple years and if I was going to sink money into fixing it up, I might just rip most of it out and put down more perennials and shrubs. One of the weeds, creeping charlie, is almost a nicer ground cover than grass. Aromatic when bruised and has nice flowers in the late spring. And a house around the corner had a nice "meadow" of native wild flowers going. Even had some milkweed to attract the monarchs. Possible inspiration. The trick is to keep the "noxious weeds" like ragweed out and not let things get out of hand else the city inspectors might come calling.
 

unsafe

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GeoFee -----you said ----Perfect love casts out all fear-----

I say ---Does it Really?-Well ---it does if we keep fear at bay ------ -here is the thing with your statement here ------fear can still creep in -----a person has to mature in that love and be able to keep Satan who is the cause of that fear at bay ----Satan is still the god of this world and has access to all people even to True Christ-ians ----who can and do allow fear to choke that perfect love ------the love is always there but we humans allows cracks to open in our daily lives and that is when the fear creeps in and chokes the love -------so watch out there GeoFee ---cause fear is a slippery guy and can gain access easily -----



GeoFee ----you said ----- You appear to understand the Bible as the Word of God, with a correct interpretation of the Bible as the way of salvation.


I say ---Not quite right there GeoFee -------The Word makes a way for people to get the Right Saving Faith to receive the free gift of Salvation which is provided by Grace who is Jesus ----

Saving Grace comes only through Saving faith -------Grace --(Jesus )---made Salvation available to all people ---so Salvation is there for all today ------Saving Faith receives what Grace ---Jesus ---has made available ----

So how does that Saving Faith come to a person -----by hearing the word ------that is what the Word says ------The Word GeoFee is alive and active and inbirths the saving Faith into ones heart who is persuaded by God --so they may receive what Jesus has made available to them -----


i say ------------Posting here from Strong's Concordance ------read all here -----https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17,
("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence)

Romans 10:17, KJV: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast

In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) enables the believer to know God's preferred-will ------"God's preferred-will are directly connected in Scripture.

"Right faith i
s a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit


GeoFee -----you said ----I disagree. For me the Spirit revealed by God in the person of Jesus is my guide along the way of life. The Spirit is not outside me. It is inside me. As it is written:

I say ---so your saying you didn't need Faith or Grace --God just spoke to you and revealed the Spirit to you in the person of Jesus and then the person Jesus just became your guide along the way of life -----no need to have the Right inbirthing of faith by hearing the word --or repentance needed -----God just singled you out and revealed the spirit and you became indwelled with the Spirit ------WOW ---aren't you fortunate --


I say -----There is a thing called Cheap Grace -----and there are many who dabble in it

read all ----https://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2010/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-cheap-grace-vs-costly-grace/

Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian ‘conception’ of God. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins…. In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a denial of the living Word of God, in fact, a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God.
 

GeoFee

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Hi unsafe,

Always good to wrestle with you. Reminds me of Jacob wrestling with the angel. I think he said: "I will not let you go until you bless me."

Let me comment briefly on this:
God just singled you out and revealed the spirit and you became indwelled with the Spirit ------WOW ---aren't you fortunate --
I am most fortunate; thanks be to God! This does not mean God singled me out. God chose me just as God has chosen many persons in all times and places. Have you no knowledge of Paul's anointing with the Holy Spirit? In a letter to the faithful in Galatia Paul said: "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." This is the core testimony of all the saints in all the ages. I am not alone!

My place in the Body of Christ was given by the Grace of God. By faith it became real in my experience.

I will leave the conversation there and watch for your gracious reply.

George
 

Ritafee

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With the apostle Paul I am well aware that I have not yet reached the goal.

The certainty which the prophet of the Remnant may always have is that the Remnant will find him. He does not need to advertise for them nor resort to any schemes of publicity to get their attention. If he is a preacher or a public speaker, for example, he may be quite indifferent to going on show at receptions, getting his picture printed in the newspapers, or furnishing autobiographical material for publication on the side of "human interest." If a writer, he need not make a point of attending any pink teas, autographing books at wholesale, nor entering into any specious freemasonry with reviewers. The prophet of the Remnant is not bound to this technique. He may be quite sure that the Remnant will make their own way to him without any adventitious aids; and not only so, but if they find him employing any such aids, as I said, it is ten to one that they will smell a rat in them and will sheer off.

Isaiah's Job by Albert Jay Nock - https://mises.org/library/isaiahs-job
 

GeoFee

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There is one God who made man. Billions of man made gods.
So you are suggesting that the idols invented by the imagination of human being are to be considered as alternative supreme beings? I would have to disagree and insist that there is but one supreme being; whose name is “ I am who I am”.
 

GeoFee

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The certainty which the prophet of the Remnant may always have is that the Remnant will find him. He does not need to advertise for them nor resort to any schemes of publicity to get their attention. If he is a preacher or a public speaker, for example, he may be quite indifferent to going on show at receptions, getting his picture printed in the newspapers, or furnishing autobiographical material for publication on the side of "human interest." If a writer, he need not make a point of attending any pink teas, autographing books at wholesale, nor entering into any specious freemasonry with reviewers. The prophet of the Remnant is not bound to this technique. He may be quite sure that the Remnant will make their own way to him without any adventitious aids; and not only so, but if they find him employing any such aids, as I said, it is ten to one that they will smell a rat in them and will sheer off.

Isaiah's Job by Albert Jay Nock - https://mises.org/library/isaiahs-job
Like Jesus my preference is for remaining anonymous. This like yeast in a bread recipe. It influences the quality of the bread but is not part of that bread’s flavour.
 

unsafe

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GeoFee ----you said ----While on earth I am being sanctified by the presence of God’s Spirit working in me.

I say
---Well GeoFee you can work as hard as you can to BE Sanctified which shows me you have no understanding of what Jesus did accomplish on the Cross ------

Posting

Hebrews 10:10 (AMP)​

10 And in accordance with this will [of God] we [who believe in the message of salvation] have been sanctified [that is, set apart as holy for God and His purposes] through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed) once for all.

I say
You are already sanctified
when you receive Jesus as your Lord and saviour ------there GeoFee ---you just have to believe it ----you can't get any Holier by working at it---your Spirit is pure and without spot or blemish ------you have been set apart ------your are right when you say you are a Saint in God's eyes and free from the Guilt and Shame of being a sinner ------your Sanctification is a done deal -----nothing you can do can improve it ---if you think you have to have God do more work to sanctify you ---then you are really saying that Jesus didn't fully complete His Mission -------

Posting
Greek word for sanctified
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.


Commentaries:
People's Commentary (NT)​

Hebrews 10:10 By which will we are sanctified. By this complete submission our sins are removed from us and we are made holy. The meaning of "sanctified" here is remission of sin. Through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ. In Christ's surrender his body was offered on the cross, once [for all] for sin, and by that offering our sins are remitted.

I say -----what needs to happen for us humans after we are Sanctified by Receiving Jesus ---is we need to work on our mind set -----and change our Worldly thinking to God's way of thinking ------Our Spirit is Holy and heaven bound -----but our mind still has that Old Mind Set of being in the World ------that is our job to mature in God's ways -----but that has nothing to do with our Spirit which was Sanctified when we became Born Again in Spirit ------ Just saying =---we have to line up our mind to fit our sanctified Spirit -----
 

GeoFee

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For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
 
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BetteTheRed

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Could we please try and return to the topic of this thread, which is the relative moral/ethical traits of capitalism and socialism.

Unsafe, we recognize that you don't think that George is properly saved, so could you just stop making every conversation about YOU and YOUR precious opinions of other people's faith?

Thank you.

Capitalism or socialism? Which seems to be more in line with what Jesus might have promoted?
 

Mendalla

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Capitalism or socialism? Which seems to be more in line with what Jesus might have promoted?
Definitely socialism, but I do not think he would necessarily be against the existence of capitalism, only that it should have its place and those who practice it should recognize the supremacy of God. He did not attack the money changers for being businesses or making profits, he attacked them for doing it in the temple and for their exploitation of those coming to worship. And he would insist on the same for socialism. Socialism puts society over the individual, but Jesus would then put God over society. Which is a difference from a lot of modern socialism, which is either atheist or at least agnostic.
 

jimkenney12

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Approximately 400,000 Canadians and their spouses travel outside Canada for necessary health services every year – spending overall $2 M per day. As for our politicians needing health services, you won’t find them all waiting in lines – some jump on a jet and head south.

Some Canadians are healthier than others!

And not just because of their diet and lifestyle,
but because of the province in which they live.

But here's the real kicker ...

As statistics demonstrate, historic and ongoing settler colonialism has ensured that unequal access to health care, when combined with racism and other social determinants, continues to have enormous and tragic consequences on the health outcomes of Indigenous people.


They are leaving the country for dental care and eye surgeries that are not part of our public health system and are hugely over priced by the capitalists dominating those systems along with people seeking treatments not yet approved by Health Canada.
 

Mendalla

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They are leaving the country for dental care and eye surgeries that are not part of our public health system and are hugely over priced by the capitalists dominating those systems along with people seeking treatments not yet approved by Health Canada.
Not necessarily. The only time we have gone cross-border was because of an unacceptably (in our opinion) wait time for a necessary diagnostic. And I doubt we are unique in that. When you are waiting months for a diagnostic that can relieve your stress about a symptom or condition and know you can afford going South and you only live a couple hours from the US as a significant percentage of Canadians do, the temptation is there and people will do it. The solution is not to demonize those who do it. The solution is to fix our system so people are not waiting months for a simple diagnostic like an MRI or to see a specialist.
 

unsafe

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BetteTheRed -------Unsafe, we recognize that you don't think that George is properly saved, so could you just stop making every conversation about YOU and YOUR precious opinions of other people's faith?

I say -----Just answering GeoFee -------- my bad ----sorry for the disruption -----
 
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