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Capitalism or Socialism?

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BetteTheRed

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I got 43 seconds into that, and he completely mis-defined socialism.

Socialism is nothing more, or less, than the idea that "there will always be poor among us" coupled with protection for the least (the metaphorical widows and orphans). It's nothing more, nor less, than the idea that greed is inherent in humanity, and rich people need a bit of persuading to help poor people.

Pure "market capitalism" says screw that, the alphas win.
 

Ritafee

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the idea that greed is inherent in humanity
is a fallacy.

Seeking pleasure and avoiding pain is a biological part of human nature.

Greed is not.

But under capitalism people learn that money can buy almost anything. Making money can become associated with pleasure just as surely as a bell can make a dog salivate, once the dog has learned that the bell means dinner. (or that the word 'sit' means 'treat')

Under a different social system that valued equality rather than inequality, getting satisfaction from accumulating more wealth than one person could ever use would be considered a sickness—something like kleptomania or addiction.
 

Luce NDs

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is a fallacy.

Seeking pleasure and avoiding pain is a biological part of human nature.

Greed is not.

But under capitalism people learn that money can buy almost anything. Making money can become associated with pleasure just as surely as a bell can make a dog salivate, once the dog has learned that the bell means dinner. (or that the word 'sit' means 'treat')

Under a different social system that valued equality rather than inequality, getting satisfaction from accumulating more wealth than one person could ever use would be considered a sickness—something like kleptomania or addiction.

How does this fit in with "learning is a pain"?

Then there is this greed for seeking pleasure and not raising query for the alternate ... thus avarice and its understanding goes astray!

Fret not with redundancy in the go round ... it too will return as a deux ... that tous ... tu la Vi! That's the vice that can cause a squeeze ...

If the ancient lambda ^ is de light rising ... imagine the "V" mistaken for a gamma in a world where Freudian slips are not notable! The celt states that it is dark in the pipe ... formerly understood as a Nordic vale where Kohl winds may RIP ... creating wrinkles and bumps in both goose and gander!

Wring every word for all you can get out of that dark domain of understanding ... given what's mist and devoid!
 

GeoFee

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Capitalism does violence to our better impulses. It robs the majority of security and liberty. It commercializes and perverts the creative impulses when they appear.G. A. KLEENE
 

Mendalla

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Once again, I have to ask what are we defining as "capitalism" here. Is my local tea shop, which is definitely a business making a profit, an example of capitalism? Is an artist starting a gallery to sell their work capitalism? An author self-publishing for money on their own website (vs. using Amazon)? Because if so, I have to disagree with the statement above me. Small businesses are doing no harm to anyone's liberty and security and are, in fact, what drives much of our local economies and enables creatives to support themselves.

If we are talking only big corporations, then I tend to use "corporatism" rather than "capitalism" and agree fully that they wield altogether too much power. However, that is a corruption of capitalism to my eye, and the harm is often as much to smaller businesses as to individuals. We need to nerf the power of big corporations, but encourage and support small business. In a way, we need more capitalism, not less, in the sense that we need to end corporate concentration in favour of diversity and competition.
 

GordW

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In the end, neither option presented in the OP, nor any other form of Utopia described by humanity over the centuries, fully describes (IMO) the Kingdom of God preached by Jesus, shared in the Messianic hopes of the Jewish Scriptures, and described in the Revelation of John.

Realistically the best we have been able to do in this place and time is some form of mixed economy (and in fact pretty mch any economy on the face of the earth right now is a mixed economy to some degree or other). Of course we also have to remember taht neither capitalism or socialism as we use the terms exist in the world of Scripture. The predominant model in that world is a monarchical model or at best an oligarchic model with wealth an power concentrated in an eilte class with a permanent underclass barely surviving so that the elite can profit. (Such things happen n modern captialism and leninism and maoism and stalinism and....). And Scripture is at best ambivalent on the idea of such a system, leaning heavily to the denunciation of it.
 

Ritafee

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In the end, neither option presented in the OP, nor any other form of Utopia described by humanity over the centuries, fully describes (IMO) the Kingdom of God preached by Jesus
This suggests, to me, that Socialism is to be preferred over Capitalism.

All the believers were of one heart and mind, and no one said that any of his possessions was his own, but instead they held everything in common. And the apostles were giving testimony with great power to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was on all of them. For there was not a needy person among them, because all those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet. This was then distributed for each person’s basic needs." (Acts 4:32-35)
 

GeoFee

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Thank you for noticing the shortcomings of my comments. I tend to speak very generally and trust that as we converse clear meaning will come into view.

My concern is not with the practice of buying and selling. Neither am I concerned about a fair return on any investment. What I wonder about is the pursuit of capital as the agenda of our modern period. This question rises from my reading of "The Leviathan" by Thomas Hobbes. Hobbes makes clear that the pursuit of power is the sole motivation of human being. Those who are successful in this pursuit are considered honorable. That honor being expressed as the possession of material goods. The more costly the goods the more honor to the possessor.

I will concede that capitalism is subject to the categories of use, misuse and abuse. Rightly used it brings benefit. Wrongly used it brings harm. Abused it brings danger. From my perspective the misuse/abuse of capital has brought us to the brink of catastrophe. We have polluted the air and the water on which our human being depends. This by the agenda of production and consumption in service to profit. An example being the early Dupont family. They made multiple millions by the manufacture and sale of plastics. Those plastics now presenting our environment with a major challenge.

We are one human being situated in one natural environment. Our own being is biologic and subject to natural limits. Transgressing those limits leads us into problematic territory. Here again Hobbes is in play. Along with other thinkers of his day, Hobbes pressed for the displacement of the natural by the artificial. An example being the deployment of concrete in the modern world. It seems to me that this excessive dependency on concrete is comparable to cancer in the human body. It is the incursion of the artificial producing the declination of our human habitat.

I will leave it there and watch for any ensuing critical commentary. Always grateful for the diversity of perspective which permits the refinement of my own emergent social commitment.
 
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Yes, I always thought overpasses should be constructed of massive piles of raked leaves. Shouldn’t have said that out loud without first registering patents on the idea. Oh well, you can have that one George, if you want to.
 

Ritafee

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Hobbes pressed for the displacement of the natural by the artificial.
And who among us is willing to throw away their connection to the AI (ie. IPhone)?

Our biological being has now been enlisted into the mining of our natural energy in the new current-cy of the technocrat-cy to further educate A.I.

I know that this will be called out as a conspiracy theory ... so be it.

Prove me wrong ...

How easy is it to participate in the 'capitalist exchange' without license to some form of digital ID?

If you have no connectivity to technology, are you now considered an unnatural being?

Do I even exist without 'free' access to technology... in the Wonder Cafe?

I, for one, have not been able to virtue-ly sever my 'free' connection here in spite of all the 'warnings' levied against me that it may yet be imperially done on behalf of the common good of this community of 'truth' seekers.

So capitalist or socialist are only words to 'discuss' ...

George I in-personally know to be a good practicing 'socialist' outside of capitalistic enterprise. He and his life partner - not only have more than sufficient 'capital' they are QBE and Degrees to choose between being oppressors of the needy in society or choosing to be of humble service to them ... they consistently 'ACT' on the latter with no credence given to their own 'safety' as priority over any 'other'.

The times they are a changing and the messages are getting swallowed up by the machinery.

Bob Dylan's handwritten lyrics to his 1960s classic "The Times They Are A-Changin" has already gone up for sale with a $2.2 million asking price in what could mark a world record for rock lyrics.

Gary Zimet, owner of Los Angeles-based autograph dealers Moments in Time, said the one-page sheet of lyrics, written in a notebook and with changes and scribbles, was originally owned by Dylan's current manager, Jeff Rosen, and was now being sold by an anonymous private collector.

"It's not an auction. It's a private sale. First come, first served," Zimet told Reuters.

Scan. Edit. Copy. Right.
 
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GeoFee

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Yes, I always thought overpasses should be constructed of massive piles of raked leaves. Shouldn’t have said that out loud without first registering patents on the idea. Oh well, you can have that one George, if you want to.
Why not reduce our use of cars? A nation vexed with obesity could turn towards health if all who are able walked and rode bicycles. We see this in Northern European contexts. We also see better general health in those contexts.

Indigenous peoples lived for countless centuries without cars or concrete. Our modern methods have been in place for about five hundred years. In this short time those methods have brought the whole human family to the brink of catastrophe.
 

BetteTheRed

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Our geography is less conducive than some to alt transportation. Walking and biking once there's lots of snow becomes problematic. Because of our conviction we have lots of space, we have lots of small populations in large-ish areas. I live in a City built around a deep bay. There's up-hill everywhere.

A smaller step? A return to sub-compact cars and the demise of the SUV (and I own one).
 

Ritafee

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Yes, I always thought overpasses should be constructed of massive piles of raked leaves. Shouldn’t have said that out loud without first registering patents on the idea. Oh well, you can have that one George, if you want to.
I'll take it. Speaking of passing over ... my mother in law's passing left us with the dilemma of making arrangements to have her burial consist of desecrating her biological being with artificial preservatives and not only a plasticized container but a cement container to put it in to preserve her further. At the same time the rural municipality warned us that our living 'community' would no longer be legally allowed to deposit their 'organic debris' on our property to be used as organic landfill by us. We were to remove the organic debris within 2 weeks at our own expense ... or it would be removed for us ... at our own expense. I subsequently spent many laborious hours ... at my own expense ... moving the organic debris further within the bounds of our 'Queens Land' that we are allowed to occupy by title of our Mort Gage with interest.

It's a mad mad world ... and we do not hold the patents ... apparently not even to our own dis-eases.
 

BetteTheRed

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Rita, I'm not sure what you are trying to say in the above post.

As far as I know, if one chooses cremation, there aren't a lot of rules about what to do with the resultant ashes (there may be, but they are mainly enforced by non-enforcement).

Also, I hear you re composting. I have a massive two part wooden composting bin in my back corner to replace the simple original two pile system thanks to an altercation with the city. Over potato peels that #1 son should have figured out were a problem.
 

Mendalla

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A smaller step? A return to sub-compact cars and the demise of the SUV (and I own one).
Even getting people to stick to smaller crossovers rather than the big honking trucks. My CR-V is actually only slightly less gas efficient than my Civic, though part of that may be that we use it more on the highway. And I'll bet something like an HR-V or a Toyota CH-R will match a compact.

Fact is, only large families need a full-size anything (car, SUV, minivan). When there's only two or three people in a household, a compact sedan, hatchback, or crossover is plenty. I'm thinking the Civic Hatchback for my next purchase. Tons of cargo space with compact car fuel efficiency.

(That's assuming I don't decide to go electric or hybrid of course)
 

Ritafee

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As far as I know, if one chooses cremation, there aren't a lot of rules
Might there be rules against using my organic debris as a pyre for the cremation of a human corpse in my 'own' yard ... killing two birds with one stone so to speak?

Since we are discussing the less capitalist ways of economics ...

Exposure of the body to the elements or to be consumed by animals achieves skeletonisation quickly and efficiently. In many cultures it is the desired disposal method - one which is natural, efficient and which counters the waste and earthly contamination of other methods. It can also reflect the belief that the physical body is unimportant once the soul or breath of life has gone. It is often combined with other methods of disposal.
 

BetteTheRed

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I love the idea of body pods to feed a tree. I wanna turn into a tree...
 

BetteTheRed

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Fact is, only large families need a full-size anything (car, SUV, minivan).

When I bought a 6 cylinder Escape, it was because I was constantly "shifting stuff", my kids were always moving, I was always picking up bins of horseshit for two sets of gardens. Before the Escape, I had an ancient Honda Prelude. I will never forget a day that involved bungee cords to manage the eight bins of fresh cowshit, and a huge bag of perlite, plus me, and a 200 lb. passenger. And the muffler was going at the time, and we had to drive through downtown.

I swear, cars used to be more fun...
 

Mendalla

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When I bought a 6 cylinder Escape
The CR-V is about the same size and has always been a four. Frankly, if I had move stuff like that, though, I'd borrow my neighbour's Ranger (Ford mid-sized pickup).
 

BetteTheRed

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I actually bought the Escape in a burst of "union patriotism", funny enough. The Prelude died at 19 years old, it was 2009, Ford had been the only manufacturer to refuse a bailout after the 2008 crash, and they were/are "union made". And it was my one, and probably only, "new car" I'd ever bought. 50th Birthday Present to Me.

And I probably would have gone for the 4 cylinder, with the manual transmission, had not best friend's hubby convinced me that the 6 would hold re-sale value better, in hindsight, kinda dubious...
 
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