Capitalism and Christ

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Redbaron

The Legend Continues
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A short article discussing the 'capitalist' view of a 'personal savior.' How do you react to it? How does it change your views?

 

Luce NDs

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Thus group relating was out ... as demonstrated by Virginia Wolfe ... as regarding poly Amory ... and hate abounds!
 

Mendalla

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On the one hand, she is right that reducing Christianity to a purely individual, personal Jesus is problematic and certainly not what he taught. In fact, he taught about a relationship with God, not with himself.

On the other hand, the idea that one can relate to God in an intimate personal way is part of what sets Jesus apart. His repeated references to God in very personal terms like "Abba" are a key part of the relationship he taught and exemplified.

So perhaps the problem is not the emphasis on a personal relationship with Jesus, but that it is Jesus that one is to have a relationship with. The one Jesus called "Abba" is the one we are to have a relationship with, with Jesus' relationship as the guide or model.

So maybe we are dealing with the "finger pointing at the moon" problem again. Christianity has been focussing on the finger, rather than the moon.

Footnote: Finger pointing at the moon is a Buddhist parable that I first heard from Marcus Borg in Reading the Bible Again for the First Time. Basically, the Buddha taught he was the finger pointing to the moon, not the moon itself (which was Nirvana). Borg applied that to scripture, arguing that focusing on the Bible as the literal Word of God is mistaking the finger for the moon. In this case, the "moon" would be God.
 

revjohn

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I have mixed reactions. I can empathize with the position put forward but I don't think it is without flaw.

The choice between either/or and both/and is one that Christianity and Christians must struggle within every age. In the either/or paradigm there can be no paradox and God is rendered impotent and bounded. In the both/and paradigm paradox exists and God is not as tidily manageable as we would like. I might prefer a God under my control, my faith doesn't acknowledge that such a God can exist and rightly be considered God.

The personal relationship with Jesus might be closely connected to capitalism. Capitalism is not that far removed from stewardship. The Protestant work ethic was corrupted to come to mean the acquisition of wealth where it began as an expression of gratitude for God's grace and the service of God's wider kingdom. Individualism, more than capitalism, erodes the notion of community and mutuality. And the notion of a personal Jesus becomes one where Jesus is uniquely concerned with me and my salvation rather than Jesus being universally concerned with us and our salvation. Mind you when pressed those who hold to the personal Christ do allow for Jesus to be concerned with others and because Jesus is concerned with others they don't need to invest time in a relationship with those others. This allows for a relationship with Jesus in which capitalism is present and notes that the relationship is selfish unless capitalism steps aside for stewardship to take its proper place.

Capitalism might be a threat to evangelism in that the natural bent of capitalism is to hoard wealth to one's self and the natural bent of evangelism is to share the gospel freely with others. This circles back to a better understanding of stewardship as gratitude and the healthy response to the gift of God's grace.

Having a personal relationship with Jesus is not a problem until one determines that one's personal relationship with Jesus is the norm by which all other relationships Jesus may have with others must play out. This ignores the teaching of Paul that the body has many members and therefore there are many kinds of relationships, not just one. We are members of the body we are not the body alone. There is one head (Christ) and that one head (Christ) will relate to each member of the body according to his sovereignty, not ours.

A personal relationship with Christ is not a problem unless it divorces itself from personal relationships with others and/or limits the personal relationships of others with Christ simply because those relationships might look/feel/sound different from our own.
 

Luce NDs

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I have mixed reactions. I can empathize with the position put forward but I don't think it is without flaw.

The choice between either/or and both/and is one that Christianity and Christians must struggle within every age. In the either/or paradigm there can be no paradox and God is rendered impotent and bounded. In the both/and paradigm paradox exists and God is not as tidily manageable as we would like. I might prefer a God under my control, my faith doesn't acknowledge that such a God can exist and rightly be considered God.

The personal relationship with Jesus might be closely connected to capitalism. Capitalism is not that far removed from stewardship. The Protestant work ethic was corrupted to come to mean the acquisition of wealth where it began as an expression of gratitude for God's grace and the service of God's wider kingdom. Individualism, more than capitalism, erodes the notion of community and mutuality. And the notion of a personal Jesus becomes one where Jesus is uniquely concerned with me and my salvation rather than Jesus being universally concerned with us and our salvation. Mind you when pressed those who hold to the personal Christ do allow for Jesus to be concerned with others and because Jesus is concerned with others they don't need to invest time in a relationship with those others. This allows for a relationship with Jesus in which capitalism is present and notes that the relationship is selfish unless capitalism steps aside for stewardship to take its proper place.

Capitalism might be a threat to evangelism in that the natural bent of capitalism is to hoard wealth to one's self and the natural bent of evangelism is to share the gospel freely with others. This circles back to a better understanding of stewardship as gratitude and the healthy response to the gift of God's grace.

Having a personal relationship with Jesus is not a problem until one determines that one's personal relationship with Jesus is the norm by which all other relationships Jesus may have with others must play out. This ignores the teaching of Paul that the body has many members and therefore there are many kinds of relationships, not just one. We are members of the body we are not the body alone. There is one head (Christ) and that one head (Christ) will relate to each member of the body according to his sovereignty, not ours.

A personal relationship with Christ is not a problem unless it divorces itself from personal relationships with others and/or limits the personal relationships of others with Christ simply because those relationships might look/feel/sound different from our own.

Imagine an autonomous individual capitalizing on such flux ... it would require a crack underground for the light to get through and thus the catacomb concept ... as some innate things are ignited and blow ...

Then, there is that cognizance of Muse with an ironic thing breaking up the hard places ... and water was released ... sprinkled all over ...

My, what an enigma ... and in that word a dark syllable ... similar to Agnes ... with a transposition of g <-> c it could be ACNE as a corporate item the Cis turn ... as the word is cranked ...

Some say intellect and calm passion is a deep innate item that bothers winners ... extant lie or as exegesis that arrives spontaneously as mounds of uprising participles blow ...! Such too are bits of literature poorly understood as to their ambiance ... perhaps due to our need for avarice?

Control does bother me liike serendipity it appears beyond me like NUT' Skye ... the hard thing confining thus that can't escape the point of autonomy ... and yet gnomon is an island ... even in the desert! They alternately are put to work cleaning up the typeset!

Tis almost numinous ... and this rifts and chuckles ... sometimes known as Charlie or other leader ... Charlatans ... like the holy roman chap ... and all else suffers!

Is this a reversionary flux ... a kind of light flow ? There may be far moor tow it that mortal can concede to ... and drag out!
 

Luce NDs

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You don't understand? Me too ... but I admit to it and pose ambiguous questions ...

Later we can reassemble "M"! Did you know that "M" was once a Hebrew expression for fullness? Thus large break out or busts like grapes whining ... demonstrating the senseless world we live in and hinting at eternal worlds ... one must break and dash for the next one ... in exhaustion you may not recall the past1 ... strange singularity? These may go on for quite a step dear lord ... given all the swirls and cranks ... like ð representing the Latin eth as Ayre ... and upended it looks loike a bent form of the ancient mother icon.

In further study up comes this ... ք ... the Armenian small letter Khe? Its form can raise questions about half of a sword! The nature of symbiology ... dismissed by many authorities ... thus a waste of word!

Is there a key to understanding IT?
 
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jimkenney12

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On the one hand, she is right that reducing Christianity to a purely individual, personal Jesus is problematic and certainly not what he taught. In fact, he taught about a relationship with God, not with himself.

On the other hand, the idea that one can relate to God in an intimate personal way is part of what sets Jesus apart. His repeated references to God in very personal terms like "Abba" are a key part of the relationship he taught and exemplified.

So perhaps the problem is not the emphasis on a personal relationship with Jesus, but that it is Jesus that one is to have a relationship with. The one Jesus called "Abba" is the one we are to have a relationship with, with Jesus' relationship as the guide or model.

So maybe we are dealing with the "finger pointing at the moon" problem again. Christianity has been focussing on the finger, rather than the moon.

Footnote: Finger pointing at the moon is a Buddhist parable that I first heard from Marcus Borg in Reading the Bible Again for the First Time. Basically, the Buddha taught he was the finger pointing to the moon, not the moon itself (which was Nirvana). Borg applied that to scripture, arguing that focusing on the Bible as the literal Word of God is mistaking the finger for the moon. In this case, the "moon" would be God.
Sally McFague used the concept of a finger pointing at the moon to explain the concept of metaphor in a first term book on idolatry and the Bible in 1986.
 

Luce NDs

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Wilmot Church in Fredericton set that icon to work on their spire ... part of some alien aspirations?

The poke continues ...

And that Taylor woman wrote a book on being Jill-Poked ... a horseman's concept on yeoman? Some duck it some don't ...

Plunge into the unknown goes on .... cause really people don't wish to know much as someone illustrated in the picture of Kreuger-Dunn Syndrome ...

State as you will ... we just don't know any better ... and repeat the same old insubstantial ... ineffably? Isn't that expansive ... or grand hole in the schemes?
 

Mendalla

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Sally McFague used the concept of a finger pointing at the moon to explain the concept of metaphor in a first term book on idolatry and the Bible in 1986.
I have a feeling I heard her on Homebrewed Christianity at some point. I see she died in 2019 so must have been during one of my earlier engagements with the podcast.
 

Luce NDs

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She appeared at ASTE a number of times I believe ... a heroin to a sector! Like Diarmond Murchu ... on quantum or chance theologies'!

Interesting concepts of population sectors forced to remain in naivete as a bit ignorant process ... deficiencies? Meets with the demands of abyss ... ABBA'd dream ... a place to escape ... dark and heavenly ... often denied ... gate crashers? Them's those bumps in a niche ... some say power as itche ... demiurge ... two sided lumps ... the last duo light-heh! Sparks ensued ... not to be explained away as if someone knew why, etc.

We don't ... we're just cranked for the experience ... experience is ultimate ... if you can get it as rite! it too pas Ess. Don't tell see if they mist Ide ...

May be a psyche attibute that powers will deny in their forte ...
 
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