Basic Income ... Good? Bad? Ugly?

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JayneWonders

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I am not suggesting that there shouldn't be a way to provide income to someone, what I am looking at is the questions that are well put within the link below.
Ten things to know about Canada’s guaranteed annual income debate | The Homeless Hub

I know that I am not the majority here by a long shot, but, what I don't see is the details that are being recommended.
we all know the s**tty stuff that the current system has, and some of them are logical consequences of that system.
We have different reasons that people need or wish assistance.
We have different understandings of what is reasonable to live on, based on where we live and our expectations and experiences.

I am a bit confused by the bandwagon. Maybe it is the analyst in me. I want to see the design, and how it will work.

Is there anyone that can provide specifics?
 

BetteTheRed

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Give me a day or two. My rev is a big part of ISARC.ca and was really excited about the push forward. She's even got Eric the accountant in her corner, let's see what I fetch up re specifics?
 

JayneWonders

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Let me take it a different way..

Let's say the base amount is $2000/month.
Does everyone get it? You, me, them?
If so, is there a clawback? If someone make $200k/year, do they pay it back? How about $100k? 50K? $20k?

Does it depend on their needs? ie, if I am significantly disabled, and require 24x7 nursing care, do i keep it no matter what? Do I get more? ie, are there other programs still in place?

Does EI continue? or is the presumption that $2000/month is good if you lose your job?
 

JayneWonders

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We've seen such s**tty intergovernmental handling of vaccines, COVID, etc.

What changes / transfers will be enacted or required to ensure success

Last question: how is $2000/month to everyone equitable?
As others have pointed out -- costs of living are significantly different in Toronto than in other areas.
Some have needs much greater than others.

equity.png
 

BetteTheRed

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Those aren't the difficult questions, maybe.

Maybe the base amount is dependent on the average rent for "whatever you are" (single, couple, family) in "a postal code". Gets a bit immobilizing then, yes?

This is all probably "easier" administratively to do with a yearly tax credit, but that's only marginally helpful to those deep in poverty.

What about a GMI by county "health unit"?

And yes, I'd think there would be supplements available for disability support.
 

Mrs.Anteater

Just keep going....
“Rather than have a rules-based, bureaucratically driven application process (during which applications must prove they are "really poor" before being approved), all Canadian citizens are ensured an automatic top-up when their income collapses for whatever reason. The incomes would be unconditional, automatic, non-withdrawable, individual, and a right of every legal resident.”
And how would one “ top up” an income without any “ bureaucratic application process”?
 

BetteTheRed

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Problem is that the only mechanism we currently have is a "yearly one", the annual CRA process.

So, you're right that any kind of "quickly reactive process to collapsed income" has got to include a "process".
 

JayneWonders

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This kinda says it all. No specifics. Pie in the sky.

Please note that the terms “universal basic income” (UBI) and guaranteed livable income used here do not endorse any particular design. The intent of the Moderator's letter and this Take Action is to raise up principles on which a program for basic income would be designed and implemented
 

BetteTheRed

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Not really. There's a lot of resources on that page. Does the church have to come up with a finished project in order to promote an idea?
 

BetteTheRed

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That certainly seems to be the sort of analysis that legislators could organize themselves around.
 

Mrs.Anteater

Just keep going....
Quote:
“In 2019, the Basic Income Canada Network (BICN) released a paper showing how a Guaranteed Livable Income could be designed and financed.4 Chapter 4 of the paper identified $202.6 Billion in revenue that could be raised from both federal and provincial sources to finance two of the BICN’s proposed GLI options. The itemized list of revenue sources presented in that chapter have been re-grouped according to the above list and the total revenues presented in the following table:
Income Source
Cancellation of Federal Income Transfer Programs1 Cancellation of Provincial Income Transfer Programs2 Closure of tax loopholes3
Total Revenue ($Billions)
$58.8 $16.2 $27.2
3 The Canada Child Benefit’s (CCB) definition of the demographic unit (the nuclear family) and the Canada Revenue Agency’s “net” family income have been applied to all households living off reserve in the 10 provinces in 2019 to arrive at the cost of the four options.
4 See, Basic Income: Some Policy Options for Canada. www.basicincomecanada.org/policy_options.
© 2021 The United Church of Canada/L’Église Unie du Canada. Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution Non-commercial No Derivatives Licence. To view a copy of this licence, visit Creative Commons — Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.5 Canada — CC BY-NC-ND 2.5 CA. Any copy must include this notice.

Backgrounder on the Nuts and Bolts of a Guaranteed Livable Income (2021)
4
Increases in Personal Income Taxes
Increases in Corporate Taxes
Removal of Selected Non-refundable tax credits4 TOTAL REVENUE
$8.2 $17.4 $74.9
$202.7
Notes:
1 Includes the Working Income Tax Benefit, GST Credit, Guaranteed Income Supplement, Old Age Security, and Spousal Allowance.
2 Includes social assistance.
3 Includes a range of items like the partial inclusion of capital gains, the employee stock option deduction, meals and entertainment deduction.
4These include the basic exemption, pension income credit, caregiver credit, student loan interest credit and others.”

So, this seems to find that quite a few of the estimated billions are already existing in the form of GST credit, GIS, student credits, OAS, social assistance.
The problem is that the people will need the payments right away and not at the end of the year. And if one doesn’t have an income, tax credits wouldn’t be that helpful, as one wouldn’t be paying taxes.
Taking away the basic exemption would hit middle class incomes pretty hard. I am sure, really rich people would find a way to move their money somewhere else to avoid taxes.
I am not quite clear why GBI would mean an increase in employment. It might help with people being able to afford education and that way overall better quality of the workforce. Considering that machines are eliminating workers, a tax on machines could also be a source of income for this purpose.
 

BetteTheRed

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I think we need to view "full employment" differently. I don't think it needs to be 40 hrs/week. With increasing automation, seems that if we're going to "spread work around" we should all work less.
 

Mendalla

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I think we need to view "full employment" differently. I don't think it needs to be 40 hrs/week. With increasing automation, seems that if we're going to "spread work around" we should all work less.
We are already short of workers in some fields. How can we reduce the hours of those we have and still get the jobs they do done? For instance, we are having problems getting RTs these days. Not many out there to start with and we are competing with hospitals to get them, esp. right now when hospitals are needing more RTs to help manage COVID and post-COVID respiratory patients. If they start working .75 FTE or something, how many more do we and the hospitals need? Where are they going to come from?

Admittedly, virtual care (one of my major projects right now) might eventually allow each RT to handle more patients since they won't always have to physically go to them for every visit, but we still need enough to maintain regular clinical visits and provide after-hours support on-call. In fact, right now, our RT workload is increasing hugely in some areas due to us being the only home oxygen company willing to handle COVID patients.

And do you really expect a business like my son's employer, that currently employs about 100, to ramp that up to employ more while still paying them the same rate? That massive increase on the expense side of the ledger could send some companies packing. Basically, if you expect everyone to work .75 or .8 FTE, then employers will want to pay them .75 or .8 FTE since otherwise they will have their payroll and benefits expenses go through the roof for no real gain in productivity. And reducing hours for hourly employees just means they get paid less. No one is going to pay them an hourly wage for 40 hours if they work 30 or 35.

This whole reduced work week idea has been around for decades and has not happened. There are sound economic and social reasons why, in spite of what idealistic futurists might think.

(And I won't get into IT, where automation generally creates more work, not less).
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Years ago there was an idea of a leisure economy ...

Did that intent apply to only an elite few? Then we get the conflict of a god given gift to all ... until some powers and energies stepped in to bring it all to ashes ... burned out stars?

Biden says that all things will change, compromise is inevitable! Would that destabilize the well established and institutionalized to looking for more ...

Thus masters and slaves ... and then a sacred humble thing! Beyond those in extreme positions of power in effect too busy to conceive of a larger picture of far out line ...

The story goes on ... and yet the powers say there is nothing to the myth of conception and cognizance as if num*bin*us ... a deep pit!

Some see a glow at the end of it ... EThix?
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
An issue not mentioned is the impact on people with addictions who were clean until they got CERB payments and dealers pressured them to go back to drugs. Most working Canadians need to choose to live where they can afford to live. My preference is a weekly payment of $270 to every citizen and permanent resident 18 and older paired to a revision of the tax system. The revision would result in people with current incomes somewhere around $95,000 having no net change in their annual net income and people with incomes above that having increasingly less net income so the UBI would not affect the deficit.
 
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