An all-knowing/omniscient god would know what it takes to convince me!

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I don't diagree with that. but we aren't forced to change are we. When was the last time someone convinced you by verbally bulldozing you? Probably never. Even if you submit on the surface, in your head you're still clinging to your beliefs. And you're irritated and resentful of the other person, to boot.

I very much doubt that, simply because of the reasons I gave in the OP.

Faith is not a good path to truth. Sorry.

No, it doesn't. In fact, it makes it far more complicated. But this thread isn't about that, anyhow it is simply special pleading to say it makes more sense.

Well good for you.
I, too, am curious, But I like to make my own decisions. I have not once said that a god isn't probable. My dilemma is, if something did claim to be a god. How can I be sure it is what it says it is.
Did you have a strange experience with something claiming to be God?

(As for changing. Living life forces us all to change in various ways.)
 

Pavlos Maros

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It's the "highest form" as a definer that I find problematic. It's subjective. How do we know what "highest" is? How do we know what's outside our apprehension as mammals? How do we assign value. Does highest mean .........? Aggressive? Smart? Adaptive?
Agreed it is subjective. But as said we consider ourselves that way, and as we have nothing to compare it with. We will continue to do so.
 

Mendalla

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As for changing. Living life forces us all to change in various ways.
Right, but not generally in a way that fundamentally changes us to the point where we are no longer the same person in a short time. We tend to evolve, not suddenly transform. I am certainly different than I was at 15 but am pretty much the same person I was at 45. And even then, there's enough continuity that I don't think I would say that 15-year-old me wasn't me, just an earlier version of me. There's a lot of fundamentals that have not changed.

It is why some people change names and such when they do have a transformative experience, though. Sometimes they really do feel like someone radically different after an experience like that. It is a different feeling from the day to day changes of life.
 

BetteTheRed

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Simply because I could not be convinced it was what it say it is.

Absolutely agreed. If I thought I heard Godde talking to me, I would self-diagnose myself with a psychotic break.

I don't "believe" in Godde. I "believe" in the concrete physical reality in which I find myself, and I define Godde as the Universes and all that comprises them, so asking me if I "believe" in Godde is, to me, akin to asking me if I believe in my hand...

I have had three mystical experiences in my life. What they gave me to understand was not 'religious' in nature.
 

ninj

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Absolutely agreed. If I thought I heard Godde talking to me, I would self-diagnose myself with a psychotic break.

I don't "believe" in Godde. I "believe" in the concrete physical reality in which I find myself, and I define Godde as the Universes and all that comprises them, so asking me if I "believe" in Godde is, to me, akin to asking me if I believe in my hand...

I have had three mystical experiences in my life. What they gave me to understand was not 'religious' in nature.
Well put. I didn't try to make an attempt to explain my lack of "belief" -- wasn't sure how.
 

BetteTheRed

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So how would an omniscient creature convince me it was a god.

Cool that you used "a" god. I suppose there's quite a lot of stuff being whispered subliminally in our collective ears via advertising/media. And many of us use those whispers to purchase stuff. "Stuff" is a "god".
 

Luce NDs

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A god is sometimes taken as an ideal ... and economically ... many mercenary companies try and tell us who's first and best ... when they are not ... actually all but a singular one are denied this cognizance ...

Cognizance is said to be crap by certain powers as determined ... these may lack conscience in their denial of cognizance ... not knowing can be communicative and thus IT goes ...

The unknowing didn't miss it ...
 

Waterfall

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Exactly. So how would an omniscient creature convince me it was a god. How could I be sure it was what it is claiming it is. That is the main point of the thread.
I suppose God would have to show up to match your expectations exactly as to what God is or how you would define God as an unbeliever just to get "her foot in the door" so to speak.....in other words, God would know you wouldn't recognize it because of your bias so he would have to accommodate that.....
God basically could be right in front of you and you wouldn't know it because in your order of things, God would have to change instead of you.
 

Luce NDs

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I suppose God would have to show up to match your expectations exactly as to what God is or how you would define God as an unbeliever just to get "her foot in the door" so to speak.....in other words, God would know you wouldn't recognize it because of your bias so he would have to accommodate that.....
God basically could be right in front of you and you wouldn't know it because in your order of things, God would have to change instead of you.

What would happen if God is an indeterminate abstract like much of infinity ... as portion of what is beyond our contemplation!

Could pondering such a deep pool go on and on absolutely?
 

Mendalla

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I would suggest that an actual encounter with an omnipresent, omnipotent force of creation would cause a transformation of some kind, especially if that deity was different from what one expects. As I mentioned earlier, people sometimes change their names and other aspects of themselves after a major spiritual experience. So the question is whether that transformation is enough to make them a "new person" as Pavlos seems to be be thinking. Some of those people would argue it does. Others who know them might not. Often it is just bringing other aspects of the transformed person to the fore, not creating totally ones.
 

Lastpointe

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You have free will. If you don’t want your mind changed then it won’t. With anything. If you are open to possibilities of new ideas then you will be

if you look at the world and don’t see God, then you don’t. God is putting lots of things in front of you to offer you a different way of thinking and looking at things. But you have to be open to considering those ideas. If you are not open to it, that is your free will working
 

Pavlos Maros

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Waterfall said:
I suppose God would have to show up to match your expectations exactly as to what God is or how you would define God as an unbeliever just to get "her foot in the door" so to speak.....in other words, God would know you wouldn't recognize it because of your bias so he would have to accommodate that.
But still how would it get past, my doubt that it is what it says it is, without forcibly changing my mind.

Waterfall said:
God basically could be right in front of you and you wouldn't know it because in your order of things, God would have to change instead of you.
What? if a thing claiming it was god stood in front of me. it would still be only a thing claiming it was a god.

Kimmio Laughterlove said:
What do you think would be changed about you? @Pavlos Maros
Because for it to change my mind in such a way that I disregard the fact that it could be an advanced alien claiming to be god in order to enslave humanity. Then I would no longer be the person I am. How do I confirm it is what it says it is. I know I keep stating this but that is the crux of the matter. I only have its word. Just like I only have the word of the religious when they claim a god exists. Which, quite honestly isn't good enough.

Lastpointe said:
You have free will.
I don't think anybody has free will, we all merely have the appearence of free will. But that is another subject for another day.
Lastpointe said:
If you don’t want your mind changed then it won’t.
Then a god could never alleviate the doubt that I have, that it is, what it says it is.
Lastpointe said:
With anything. If you are open to possibilities of new ideas then you will be
Oh I'm open. However it would need to get past the first hurdle. "It is what it claims it is."

Lastpointe said:
if you look at the world and don’t see God, then you don’t. God is putting lots of things in front of you to offer you a different way of thinking and looking at things. But you have to be open to considering those ideas. If you are not open to it, that is your free will working
I think you may of misunderstood, this thread.
 

Mendalla

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God is putting lots of things in front of you to offer you a different way of thinking and looking at things.
Show me one thing in the world that unambiguously leads to God without faith being required to see it that way. If one sees God in nature, or people doing good, or whatever, that's the person viewing that thing using faith as a lens. A humanist can see the same thing through their lens without God being involved. You only see God in those things, in other words, if you choose to or if you see the world through a lens of faith. For something to lead someone like Pavlos (or maybe even me) to God, requires something that will be seen as God without requiring a faith lens. If you need a faith lens to see God, then people without that lens can never see God. The beauty of the world, for instance, can be seen as God's handiwork but it can also be seen as simply the way the world is and the value that we attach to it.
 
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