Alien creators?

[Mendalla]

One of the more ... unusual "scientific theories" about the origin of the universe.

http://mobile.wnd.com/2016/11/did-aliens-create-and-maintain-the-universe/

Yep, aliens done it. If I could get this guy in here, my question would be "how does a hyper advanced alien capable of creating physics as we know it differ from a God?". He even talks about this alien creator incorporating itself into the reality it has created, so this is a panentheist alien God evidently.

To be clear, the idea of God being a hyper evolved being or the result of a "singularity" is not new, but it's previously been a plot item in sf novels, not a "scientific" theory. For instance, in Charles Stross' Singularity Sky, humanity is under the somewhat tyrannical rule of a hyper evolved AI called The Eschaton which is God in all but name.

I'm not actually taking it too seriously but the idea has been around in sf long enough that I find it fun to at least think about.

If a hyper evolved alien looks like a God and acts like a God, is it not then God?

Is this science coming full circle to meet up with religion at the other end? Is it a scientist trying to have a God without calling it that (as the article suggests)? A covert attempt to make theism sound "scientific"?

 

[RevLindsG King]

Yes, Mendalla, with a deep interest & lots of curiosity I just read your thread title about
Alien creators?
[HERE within your comment, I will study it even more so, ask questions and make comments as our dialogue evolves. As this is your THREAD, if you prefer that we use a different method--one designed by you, just let me know and I, as a panentheist/unitheist will gladly agree just to observe what develops.]

One of the more ... unusual "scientific theories" about the origin of the universe.

http://mobile.wnd.com/2016/11/did-aliens-create-and-maintain-the-universe/

Yep, aliens done it. If I could get this guy in here, my question would be "how does a hyper advanced alien capable of creating physics as we know it differ from a God?"

He even talks about this alien creator incorporating itself into the reality it has created, so this is a panentheist alien God evidently.

To be clear, the idea of God being a hyper evolved being or the result of a "singularity" is not new, but it's previously been a plot item in sf novels, not a "scientific" theory. For instance, in Charles Stross' Singularity Sky, humanity is under the somewhat tyrannical rule of a hyper evolved AI called The Eschaton which is God in all but name.

I'm not actually taking it too seriously but the idea has been around in sf long enough that I find it fun to at least think about.

If a hyper evolved alien looks like a God and acts like a God, is it not then God?

Is this science coming full circle to meet up with religion at the other end? Is it a scientist trying to have a God without calling it that (as the article suggests)? A covert attempt to make theism sound "scientific"?

 

[Jae]

As a bit of a sci-fi fan, I appreciate the alien-as-creator idea.

However, then I ask - who created the alien.

 

[Mendalla]

Yes, Mendalla, with a deep interest & lots of curiosity I just read your thread title about
Alien creators?
[HERE within your comment, I will study it even more so, ask questions and make comments as our dialogue evolves. As this is your THREAD, if you prefer that we use a different method--one designed by you, just let me know and I, as a panentheist/unitheist will gladly agree just to observe what develops.]

Read the article I linked and discuss it. That's the point of the thread, @RevLindsG King. I have no expectations about how that discussion happens or where it goes.

 

[Mendalla]

As a bit of a sci-fi fan, I appreciate the alien-as-creator idea.

However, then I ask - who created the alien.

Which is the exact same argument some raise against a supernatural creator.

One possibility, if the "hyper evolution" is the result of a singularity, it just means that there was some primal life at some point in some past "universe" that achieved a singularity and it's outcome has shaped every universe since.

However, there may be other ideas out there. I am not sold on this any more than i am on a supernatural creator so I have no interest in defending it. I'm just curious what others think of the idea.

 

[Jae]

Which is the exact same argument some raise against a supernatural creator.

One possibility, if the "hyper evolution" is the result of a singularity, it just means that there was some primal life at some point in some past "universe" that achieved a singularity and it's outcome has shaped every universe since.

However, there may be other ideas out there. I am not sold on this any more than i am on a supernatural creator so I have no interest in defending it. I'm just curious what others think of the idea.

Right, but I would still wonder where the singularity came from. In my thinking, God is so completely Other that it's possible that he has just always existed and at just the right timeless-time created all else that exists. I can't see that being the case with an alien Creator.

 

[Neo]

If God is One then we, as manifested appearances, are the sum of that One. Like cells in a body of some stupendous Being, we are but the working and individual parts. Could you image trying to convey to a cell in your hand what it is be human? By analogy, therefore, we can surmise some basic truths about God.

 

[Mendalla]

If God is One then we, as manifested appearances, are the sum of that One. Like cells in a body of some stupendous Being, we are but the working individual parts. Could you image trying to convey to a cell in your hand what it is be human? By analogy, therefore, we can surmise some basic truths about God.

Right, but what if "God" is a civilization of uber-powerful, transhuman aliens, who have shaped and insinuated themselves into our universe, which is the point of this thread (did you read the article I linked)?

 

[blackbelt1961]

Which is the exact same argument some raise against a supernatural creator.

except Christianity teaches Yahweh is the uncaused , cause

 

[Mendalla]

except Christianity teaches Yahweh is the uncaused , cause

The existence of an uncaused cause is a faith statement though. Even the so-called Big Bang now appears likely to have had a cause, possibly originating in a pre-existing universe, rather than just being a spontaneous eruption so few in philosophy or science accept that anything is "uncaused". The idea of an "uncaused cause" is actually rooted in Greek philosophy, not the Bible. Aristotle's "unmoved mover" and later ideas of Neo-Platonists like Plotinus. It is not, then, specifically Judaeo-Christian in origin, though Christian theologians influenced by Greek philosophy happily adopted it. IOW, another example of Christianity being influenced by pre-Christian thought.

 

[chansen]

except Christianity teaches Yahweh is the uncaused , cause

Well, case closed then. If you claim your hypothesized creator always existed, then you win. There can't be any other explanation.

 

[Neo]

Eastern beliefs too call it the "Abstract All", the "Causeless One Cause", the "Rootless Root", the "First Cause" of the Logos. Eternity has no beginning or end, hence it's a Causeless Cause. Like a serpent swallowing it's own tail.

 

[Luce NDs]

Tis an indeed strange consideration ...

And you know how religious belief systems feel about unknowns ... reject and deny them a place in heaven ... or yah way's state of mind ... thinking being strange in an truly emotional domain ...

Some of the stoics would toss that thought out ...

 

[blackbelt1961]

The existence of an uncaused cause is a faith statement though.

agreed


Even the so-called Big Bang now appears likely to have had a cause,

[/quote]

who I believe the Creator was the cause

possibly originating in a pre-existing universe,

which would beg the question, who created the pre-existant universe

rather than just being a spontaneous eruption so few in philosophy or science accept that anything is "uncaused". The idea of an "uncaused cause" is actually rooted in Greek philosophy, not the Bible.

I dont see it, there are many bible verses that speak to the Eternity of God

 

[Luce NDs]

Hoo created the creator? The unknown psyche ... as an out of here thingy! Thus Dr Seuss, or the doctrine of suing for the first available piece ... thus that dark core virtue ... abstract?

The point moves on ... as the penne has not completed the story ... the end is myth ... incarnate? Appears the myth has a sharp edginess ... inne finite NDS? Thus it goes round and round ...

In the doldrums ... you don't know what comes up ...

 

[Waterfall]

Or maybe "the creator/aliens" died a long time ago and we just assume the creator is still there and eternal.

 

[Luce NDs]

Or maybe "the creator/aliens" died a long time ago and we just assume the creator is still there and eternal.

It's the thought that's out there as truth ... beyond belief ... mere conservators! Some fiasco required as to get the kohl thoughts distributed ... but that appears as not yet ... a parallel to re incarnate ... a light not yet seen by the walking dead? They just don't gather ... strange things that are ... contrary to the conflicting reports in the script that speaks of unknowns as they potentially could be angels. Do angels vary in hue ... so you can't see them on stormy nights? Tis a mysterious story of obtuse nature ... no one's seen Ur either ...

Could be an Omah ... word from another time ...

 

[BetteTheRed]

Or maybe "the creator/aliens" died a long time ago and we just assume the creator is still there and eternal.

If the creator/aliens added anything to our DNA, it would be there still.

 

[Mendalla]

If the creator/aliens added anything to our DNA, it would be there still.

But what that article is talking about goes deeper than that. It's arguing they worked right down at the level of fundamental particles and forces. They wouldn't be detectable at the DNA level because they work at a more fundamental level.

And who is say it isn't there? We didn't know about Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA being part of our genome until very recently because until we had their DNA to compare to, there was no way to detect it. All we had was some markers that we couldn't explain until we realized they were markers from those earlier human species, indicating that some interspecies nookie had been going on (since gene splicing wasn't an option that long ago). If aliens spliced our DNA and did it well, the only way to tell would be to have a sample of what they spliced it with.

The idea of aliens messing with evolution is an old one, by the way. H. P. Lovecraft used it in his novel At the Mountains of Madness and that was written in 1931. In fact, I sometimes suspect that von Daniken, of Chariots of the Gods fame, was a Lovecraft fan who took the old man's work too seriously.

 

[Mendalla]

Lovecraft's alien manipulators look rather like this, by the way (the weird thing on the left, not the penguins, though the idea of penguins as the ultimate masters of the world has a certain appeal to it):

Not even remotely humanoid, IOW.