Acts 1:6-14 Jesus Ascends; the Disciples Await the Advocate/Spirit

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BetteTheRed said:
Actually, there's a Christian Reformed member of our bible study who noted that Pentecost was considered a pre-eminent holiday in her tradition.

The UCCan seems not to have celebrated it much historically, but it's in the lectionary/holy days now.

And you've actually gone into chapter 2, here, mystic. In this passage, we have only the promise of the Spirit.
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True, but 1:6-14 raises the question of what "kingdom" means and I wanted to show that both "kingdom" and the promised outpouring of the Spirit involve divine "power."
Your 'kindom" pun has merit but just needs to acknowledge this power, especially to witness.

btw, though I disagree with you and Jim about various issues, I'm delighted that both of you have had mystical experiences because that suggests that more profound spiritual experiences might become available to you. My own mystical experiences have provided by far the highlights of my life and sacred memories from which I regularly draw emotional nourishment.
 
The power of the reign of heaven mediated through the Spirit is expressed in many ways. One of them is the Pentecostal way but do not limit the work of the Spirit to what any one of us wants to believe.
 
jimkenney12 said:
The power of the reign of heaven mediated through the Spirit is expressed in many ways. One of them is the Pentecostal way but do not limit the work of the Spirit to what any one of us wants to believe.
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Is heaven a spatial state of psyche ... being this ephemeral essence was eliminated? MOG Wise ...
 
Mystic said:
True, but 1:6-14 raises the question of what "kingdom" means and I wanted to show that both "kingdom" and the promised outpouring of the Spirit involve divine "power."
Your 'kindom" pun has merit but just needs to acknowledge this power, especially to witness.
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Except that you are using "power" in the way that it's always been understood by those in power, and by elites of various sorts. "Power" means "Power over". And that's a kingdom, for sure.

But when I use kin-dom, and if I should ever refer to the power of the Spirit, I would be referring to "power with" - the power of love in community where the least is always the first.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Except that you are using "power" in the way that it's always been understood by those in power, and by elites of various sorts. "Power" means "Power over". And that's a kingdom, for sure.
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No, "power to witness" refers to the work of the Holy Spirit on the unbelieving audience that convinces them of the truth of the Gospel message. That's the role the Holy Spirit plays according to Paul and Jesus (see e, g, John 16:8-9). And that's why the Pentecost outpouring of the Spirit in Acts 2 became the birthday of the Church--also the reason why the promise in Acts 1:8 is the most important verse in that passage.
Beyond that, "the power of the Spirit" refers to the gifts of the Spirit like speaking in tongues, prophecy, and the miracles that were common verifications of pf the truth of Paul's preaching (1 Corinthians 2:4-5; Rom. 15:18-19; Acts 19:5-6, etc.).
 
Mystic said:
No, "power to witness" refers to the work of the Holy Spirit on the unbelieving audience that convinces them of the truth of the Gospel message. That's the role the Holy Spirit plays according to Paul and Jesus (see e, g, John 16:8-9). And that's why the Pentecost outpouring of the Spirit in Acts 2 became the birthday of the Church--also the reason why the promise in Acts 1:8 is the most important verse in that passage.
Beyond that, "the power of the Spirit" refers to the gifts of the Spirit like speaking in tongues, prophecy, and the miracles that were common verifications of pf the truth of Paul's preaching (1 Corinthians 2:4-5; Rom. 15:18-19; Acts 19:5-6, etc.).
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You prefer to understand power as something that is compulsive. Thr Christian martyrs demonstrated power that is invitational. I define power as the capacity to create or foster change. Most conservative religious people, regardless of religion, tend to focus on power over. Relational religious people including mystics tend to focus on power for whether that is self or others. You keep imposing limits on the Spirit or understanding the Spirit.
 
So are you saying it doesn't matter to you how the NT (specifically Jesus and Paul) understood "power." My alleged concept of
power" is irrelevant to the question of its NT meaning.
 
Not irrelevant, mystic, but perhaps not the way that I and others are going to interpret these passages today. I think one has to balance the "wisdom of the ancients" with the "knowledge of the present". If one tends towards a process view of theology, then the Spirit is a temptress, who lures us towards life and love with Her subtle hints and messages.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Not irrelevant, mystic, but perhaps not the way that I and others are going to interpret these passages today. I think one has to balance the "wisdom of the ancients" with the "knowledge of the present". If one tends towards a process view of theology, then the Spirit is a temptress, who lures us towards life and love with Her subtle hints and messages.
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In other words, you and Jim feel free to reject Jesus and Paul's understanding of the kingdom and the Holy Spirit and invent your own arbitrary and inept religion bereft of supernatural power as Jesus and Paul understood this.
 
Mystic said:
In other words, you and Jim feel free to reject Jesus and Paul's understanding of the kingdom and the Holy Spirit and invent your own arbitrary and inept religion bereft of supernatural power as Jesus and Paul understood this.
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May I suggest they reject YOUR understanding of power, the kindom, and the Holy Spirit. Whether or not they agree with Jesus and Paul isn't your call to make.
 
Redbaron said:
May I suggest they reject YOUR understanding of power, the kindom, and the Holy Spirit. Whether or not they agree with Jesus and Paul isn't your call to make.
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You may suggest that if you can identify even one NT scholar who rejects my understanding of Jesus, Paul, and Acts. And yes, it is my call to make barring any rational case to the contrary.
 
I suspect that you and Amy Jill Levine would part company. She puts a lovely Jewish twist on NT scholarship. Have you ever met her? Was so privileged some years ago to attend a Palm Sunday service a few years ago in a town north of here, where she was the guest preacher on Palm Sunday, and had led workshops over that weekend, which I'd attended.

My Jewish "feelings" are totally centred in tikkun olam - the repair of the 'world'. That totally requires power with, not power over. Godde, in my experience, prefers bottom up to top down systems.

And piss off, berserk, this is MY BPoTW, and I can ask @Mendalla to ban your participation in this thread if you are trying to make bizarre claims of exclusive rationality on a theology thread.
 
I stand by my statement. They are not disagreeing with Jesus and Paul. They are disagreeing with you. No need for "NT scholars" to be cited. And no, it is not YOUR call to make. As jimkenney12 mentions above, "The power of the reign of heaven mediated through the Spirit is expressed in many ways. One of them is the Pentecostal way but do not limit the work of the Spirit to what any one of us wants to believe."
 
Mystic said:
In other words, you and Jim feel free to reject Jesus and Paul's understanding of the kingdom and the Holy Spirit and invent your own arbitrary and inept religion bereft of supernatural power as Jesus and Paul understood this.
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The Kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed....an invasive shrub that magically becomes big enough for birds to nest in it. It is like a woman mixing yeast into dough, becoming inseparable from the world. I am not denying the importance of the Spirit in helping people participate in the kingdom or kindom life. I just do not limit the power of the Spirit to the dramatic acts you promote. The Spirit has been a near constant and occasionally annoying part of my life for 60 years.

I believe the leadership of congregations need to be willing to let the Spirit lead their decision making and actions for congregations to thrive. Please remind me of where Paul clearly separates powers of the spirit from gifts of the Spirit.

Right now I celebrate how the embrace of the Spirit by leaders in a congregation I am supervising is helping the congregation grow in numbers and in ministry.

I apologize if I have failed to be clear about the importance of the Spirit to me for most of my life. I regret your inability to expand your understanding of works of the Spirit if that is the problem.

Genesis and Exodus treat God as capable of being changed by negotiations with key figures. Christians seem to want God to be unchanging. sad.
 
jimkenney12 said:
I have noticed this for several years now. The loss of insects is rapidly approaching the status of an ecological catastrophe.
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Yet, there are some that take this as a sign we are winning against the natural spirit of diversity so a man of avarice can stand in hubris ... all alone!

Ordinary folk do not give a crap about hubris unless that is their private goal ... to control everything without clues ... alas the powers in reality will destroy all clues ... symbols are claimed to be evil ... like the squiggles between the pages of the many alternate tomes ... Thomasites' take on an other meaning!

Doesn't the GoJ say something about all the other stories? Therein a spectre of spirits and essence ... stinking monsters to those that read everything only one-way ... keep your ear to the earth or mire as they used to say; that's the dirt an character you should know better (them battened down and immobile in the field of Sophistication)! Bad spots to be in ... see Spot go ...
 
Redbaron said:
I stand by my statement. They are not disagreeing with Jesus and Paul. They are disagreeing with you. No need for "NT scholars" to be cited. And no, it is not YOUR call to make. As jimkenney12 mentions above, "The power of the reign of heaven mediated through the Spirit is expressed in many ways. One of them is the Pentecostal way but do not limit the work of the Spirit to what any one of us wants to believe."
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My unanswered challenge was to find even one NT scholar who disagrees with what I say about Jesus', Paul's, and Luke's understanding of power. To understand what NT figures mean by words, a word study is required. Here is what a word study of how "dynamis" and "exousia" (the 2 Greek words for "power") are used in the Gospels.

"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in POWER ("dynamis"--Mark 9:1_"
"And He gave them [the 12] AUTHORITATIVE POWER ("exousia") over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to cure every disease and every sickness (Matthew 10:1; again in Mark 3:15)."
""Truly I tell you, the one who believes in me will do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these because I am going to the Father."

Jesus makes it clear that it is precisely through His miraculous cures that the kingdom of God comes to people:

"Cure the sick who are there and say to them, "The kingdom of God has come near to you (Luke 10:9)."
"If it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come to you (Matthew 12:28; also Luke 11:23)."

And of course the link between supernatural "power" and the kingdom of God is even stronger in Paul--a fact I can document even more fully, if challenged.
 
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