(4) Church Growth: Numerical and Spiritual Growth

[Mystic]

(1) With its unempowering, non-transformational spirituality, and widespread belief in a non-interventionist God, UCCan is in the steepest decline of any denomination:

The United Church's numbers have dropped more than any other denomination | Broadview Magazine

Canada's largest Protestant denomination is shrinking the fastest. The latest census paints a grim picture of The United Church of Canada, which lost a whopping 40 percent of affiliates between 2011 and 2021, falling to 1.2 million people from roughly two million.

broadview.org

(1a) Yet even in Canada, conservative churches, including conservative United Churches, are growing and thriving due to their lived experience of "the power of prayer" and their unambiguous acceptance of the authority and power of biblical application:

Even in Canada, Conservative Churches Are Growing - Christianity Today

Mainline churches with evangelical leanings outpace their liberal counterparts, study says.

www.christianitytoday.com

(1b) Despite UCCan's steep decline except for its conservative churches, some UCCan liberal churches are thriving. Why? Among other factors, because of their stress on the experience of spiritual growth through spiritual formation, small groups, vibrant worship in which God is truly adored, and highly success children and youth programs:

Jan 2021: Thriving United Churches built on 'spiritual attributes'

Two years ago, Loraine MacKenzie Shepherd was feeling stuck. Since arriving of Westworth United Church in 2013, the minister had made a number of changes to its mission statement, governance structure...

www.winnipegfreepress.com

(2) By contrast, Roman Catholics increase their global number by a whopping 14 million in just one year (2 022):

The Catholic Church by the numbers: more Catholics, fewer vocations

While vocations to the priesthood and religious life have decreased overall, the Church shows signs of growth in some parts of the world — most notably Africa and Asia.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

(3) Far more impressive still is global Pentecostalism, which sociologist Peter Berger characterizes as the fastest growing religious phenomenon in religious history:

 

[Jaebius]

(1) With its unempowering, non-transformational spirituality, and widespread belief in a non-interventionist God, UCCan is in the steepest decline of any denomination:

The United Church's numbers have dropped more than any other denomination | Broadview Magazine

Canada's largest Protestant denomination is shrinking the fastest. The latest census paints a grim picture of The United Church of Canada, which lost a whopping 40 percent of affiliates between 2011 and 2021, falling to 1.2 million people from roughly two million.

broadview.org

(1a) Yet even in Canada, conservative churches, including conservative United Churches, are growing and thriving due to their lived experience of "the power of prayer" and their unambiguous acceptance of the authority and power of biblical application:

Even in Canada, Conservative Churches Are Growing - Christianity Today

Mainline churches with evangelical leanings outpace their liberal counterparts, study says.

www.christianitytoday.com

(1b) Despite UCCan's steep decline except for its conservative churches, some UCCan liberal churches are thriving. Why? Among other factors, because of their stress on the experience of spiritual growth through spiritual formation, small groups, vibrant worship in which God is truly adored, and highly success children and youth programs:

Jan 2021: Thriving United Churches built on 'spiritual attributes'

Two years ago, Loraine MacKenzie Shepherd was feeling stuck. Since arriving of Westworth United Church in 2013, the minister had made a number of changes to its mission statement, governance structure...

www.winnipegfreepress.com

(2) By contrast, Roman Catholics increase their global number by a whopping 14 million in just one year (2 022):

The Catholic Church by the numbers: more Catholics, fewer vocations

While vocations to the priesthood and religious life have decreased overall, the Church shows signs of growth in some parts of the world — most notably Africa and Asia.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

(3) Far more impressive still is global Pentecostalism, which sociologist Peter Berger characterizes as the fastest growing religious phenomenon in religious history:

Let's not lose hope. That there are bright spots reminds us that our faith can flourish in different ways and settings. Let's keep praying for renewal across all churches, trusting in God's plan

 

[chansen]

(1) With its unempowering, non-transformational spirituality, and widespread belief in a non-interventionist God, UCCan is in the steepest decline of any denomination:

How did attendance at your last church trend while you were pastor?

 

[Mystic]

How did attendance at your last church trend while you were pastor?

As a mainline denomination, United Methodist, we were an aging church with many deaths and were fortunate to hold our own at basically the same attendance level. Our high average age make it difficult to attract a lot of young couples with children, though we had a modest humber of youth, for whom started a 2nd contemporary style service.

So I suppose we were more an example of the slow steady decline of mainline Protestant churches. Here is what was heart-breaking: visitors would tell me that they loved the worship, but would never join the church because of the UMC stance on LGBTQ issues and other progressive stances.

 

[chansen]

As a mainline denomination, United Methodist, we were an aging church with many deaths and were fortunate to hold our own at basically the same attendance level.

That's funny. The data released by the UMC shows that attendance dropped more than 20% from the time you joined in 2007 until you left in 2015.

It looks like Covid did a number on average attendance, but things were looking up after you left.

Our high average age make it difficult to attract a lot of young couples with children, though we had a modest humber of youth, for whom started a 2nd contemporary style service.

It's interesting then, isn't it, that Sunday School attendance almost doubled in two years after you left, and doubled again in 2021.

So I suppose we were more an example of the slow steady decline of mainline Protestant churches. Here is what was heart-breaking: visitors would tell me that they loved the worship, but would never join the church because of the UMC stance on LGBTQ issues and other progressive stances.

I understand ministers in the UMC were sometimes violating the Book of Discipline and marrying lesbian and gay couples. One minister presided over his son's marriage to another man and was defrocked. That must have been heartwarming to your congregation, in 2013. So for most of your time there, it wasn't exactly all that "progressive", was it? That minister was reinstated in 2014, as more and more ministers and bishops began to challenge the Book of Discipline. Including your own bishop.

Which doesn't exactly square with what happened after you left, does it? Look at the rise in Sunday School attendance after you left. I mean, 2020 had lower attendance, explained by Covid. But 2020 still had higher attendance than every year you were there. Your Sunday School lost to freakin' Covid-19 Sunday School.

As you're aware, your church disaffiliated with the UMC in 2022 and joined the Global Methodist Church, so we won't see any more data like this. Maybe the Global Methodist church will publish the same data.

Your last church benefitted from your retirement.

 

[Mystic]

My brother's former Presbyterian church in Colorado is an interesting, if puzzling example of the attendance pattern laid out in the OP.
Thr preaching was awful, cliched and unhelpful, and my brother and his wife eventually quit for that reason. Yet they had a huge ministry to young adults, many of whom could be seen with hands uplifted and tears in their eyes as they praised God during the hymns. The passionate spirit of worship in this rather formal service was remarkable but, for me, rationally inexplicable, but it was obviously part of their great success in attracting young people.
I only attended these services once a year, when I was visiting my brother and would love to gain a better grasp of their appeal to young adults and the passion of their worship.

 

[Jaebius]

How did attendance at your last church trend while you were pastor?

So, chansen, is it your contention that church attendance rises and falls only as a direct result of who its pastor is? I can agree that's a significant factor, but it's not the only one. And we don't know what would have happened if @Mystic had stayed on.

Church attendance can rise and fall and rise and fall. During my time as pastor of my English ministry, for just one example, the attendance fell but then rose back up again. I wouldn't be surprised if it then fell next, and then rose again. People go through all kinds of life changes and those can also lead people away from, or to, a church. There's more, I feel, in most churches a wave pattern going on than anything.

It's like riding a spiritual rollercoaster. Those of us who are faithful can just hold on tight and enjoy the ride

 

[chansen]

So, chansen, is it your contention that church attendance rises and falls only as a direct result of who its pastor is? I can agree that's a significant factor, but it's not the only one. And we don't know what would have happened if @Mystic had stayed on.

Everything happened exactly the opposite of what Berserk claims. He claims that attendance heald steady. It declined over 20%. He claims that losses were due to "LGBTQ issues and other progressive stances," while those happened later, and when they were taking hold, after he left, the church saw increased attendance and an explosion of children.

Sometimes my word choice isn't the best.

So, like usual, Berserk is bragging about things that aren't true. Look at the numbers. He leaves, and Sunday School attendance quadruples in four years? Perhaps his successor was amazing. Berserk was certainly not. Nor were they holding their own "at basically the same attendance level" while he was there.

 

[Mystic]

What hurt is that key leadership people in our church moved to other cities.
We had active community outreach meeting the needs of the poor and weekly free meals, but that outreach did not increase our attendance due to the many deaths of our elderly members. The 2nd service I started for younger people has been cancelled since I left. I hear that attendance there is down quite a bit in the last year or so and I do hope the church can thrive and attract a younger congregation going forward.

 

[Mystic]

As sociologist Peter Berger points out in one of the OP' videos, the unprecedented explosive expanson of Pentecostalism is fueled by 2 factors:
(1) a conscious awareness of living in a realm of regular miraculous healing and (2) a force for modernizing the cultures in which it finds itself. For example, in the Johannesburg Pentecostal church (7,000 average Sunday attendance), job training programs were established to help its poor start businesses and develop marketable skills.

 

[Mystic]

As the OP reports, Catholicism grew by 14 million in one year (2022). We have just 1 Catholic church in town. I'm struck by how many of its membership is drawn from local Protestant churches. We Protestant strive for variety in our churches in an effort to minimize boredom with routine. But local Catholics tell me it is precisely the sameness of their weekly mass that appeals to them. I don't accept the metaphysics of the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation.
But for devout Catholics, Holy Communion provides a chance for a regular unique mystical connection with Christ and that connection gives Mass a special experiential appeal. I wish our Protestant Holy Communion could transcend mere symbolism and mediate such a sacred experience. Also, devout Catholics treasure tregular Confession to a priest as a concrete tool for spiritual growth. I overhearf a discussion between 2 Catholics in a restaurant of a book on how to make Confession more authentic and effective. In the absence of regular Confession, spiritual growth seems more elusive, often unrealistic, to us Protestants. Then there are the Catholic holy sites for miracles like Lourdes, Medjugorje, and the House of the Virgin Mary at Ephesus--sites where marvelous miracles are continually reported. Catholics (and Pentecostals) seem inspired by more modern miracles more than the typical Protestant.

Now I have never believed in Catholic holy relics and prayers to the saints. But not long ago, a Catholic told me he took his wife to the tomb of a saint in Italy for prayer to that saint and his wife was healed of congestive heart failure. I feel challenged by Catholic beliefs and practices that seem far more spiritually powerful than my routine experience as a Methodist. Thus, Catholicism humbles me by providing a more powerful spirituality in some ways than is facilitated by my own spiritual convictions.

Finally, Catholic seminaries offer degrees in Spiritual Direction, based on the best teaching of the Desert Fathers, monasteries, and experiential psychology, which can make spiritual retreats to lovely outdoor getaways a transformative experience. For example, Philip Yancey, a prolific evangelical author, complained to Brennan Manning, a Franciscan friar, that he had never actually had a convincing experienc of God, despite all his prayigg and years of exploring theology. Manning challenged Yancey to go on a Spiritual Direction retreat with him, guaranteeing he would experience God convincingly as a resul--and Yancey later reproted that Manning delivered on his guarantee.

 

[Jaebius]

As the OP reports, Catholicism grew by 14 million in one year (2022). We have just 1 Catholic church in town. I'm struck by how many of its membership is drawn from local Protestant churches. We Protestant strive for variety in our churches in an effort to minimize boredom with routine. But local Catholics tell me it is precisely the sameness of their weekly mass that appeals to them. I don't accept the metaphysics of the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation.
But for devout Catholics, Holy Communion provides a chance for a regular unique mystical connection with Christ and that connection gives Mass a special experiential appeal. I wish our Protestant Holy Communion could transcend mere symbolism and mediate such a sacred experience. Also, devout Catholics treasure tregular Confession to a priest as a concrete tool for spiritual growth. I overhearf a discussion between 2 Catholics in a restaurant of a book on how to make Confession more authentic and effective. In the absence of regular Confession, spiritual growth seems more elusive, often unrealistic, to us Protestants. Then there are the Catholic holy sites for miracles like Lourdes, Medjugorje, and the House of the Virgin Mary at Ephesus--sites where marvelous miracles are continually reported. Catholics (and Pentecostals) seem inspired by more modern miracles more than the typical Protestant.

Now I have never believed in Catholic holy relics and prayers to the saints. But not long ago, a Catholic told me he took his wife to the tomb of a saint in Italy for prayer to that saint and his wife was healed of congestive heart failure. I feel challenged by Catholic beliefs and practices that seem far more spiritually powerful than my routine experience as a Methodist. Thus, Catholicism humbles me by providing a more powerful spirituality in some ways than is facilitated by my own spiritual convictions.

Finally, Catholic seminaries offer degrees in Spiritual Direction, based on the best teaching of the Desert Fathers, monasteries, and experiential psychology, which can make spiritual retreats to lovely outdoor getaways a transformative experience. For example, Philip Yancey, a prolific evangelical author, complained to Brennan Manning, a Franciscan friar, that he had never actually had a convincing experienc of God, despite all his prayigg and years of exploring theology. Manning challenged Yancey to go on a Spiritual Direction retreat with him, guaranteeing he would experience God convincingly as a resul--and Yancey later reproted that Manning delivered on his guarantee.

In the Methodist denomination, Mystic, is communion not a sacrament?

 

[Mystic]

Everything happened exactly the opposite of what Berserk claims. He claims that attendance heald steady. It declined over 20%. He claims that losses were due to "LGBTQ issues and other progressive stances," while those happened later,

Rubbish! The later schism occurred as a result of intense division between progressives and conservatives while I was pastor.
Visitors knew this and held the rebellious progressive practices of our western conference against our church

and when they were taking hold, after he left, the church saw increased attendance and an explosion of children.

I recently asked my former youth director about how the church's youth ministry is going and she said they have almost no children now, compared to when I was there. I'm al least glad there was an uptick in child attendance after I left, perhaps due to the young mother that is the pastor's wlfe.

Sometimes my word choice isn't the best.

So, like usual, Berserk is bragging about things that aren't true.

I'm hardly braqging since I conceded that my ministry there might be characterized as an example of mainline "slow steady decline. If there was a 20% decline over time, I never noticed it and a lady recently complained to me that attendance has been down a lot this past year.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is there anything harder to get an idea across that a hard-shell? Unsinkable, they believe. Excuse the list due to tripping over Phtha item of contention ... word itself is arguable! Thus mainly because of prior corruption ... difficult to avoid if not examined in severe interpretation! There's more to it that meets the Ayers ...

I watch churches from safe arms length and see things they cannot because of blinding emotional flashes ... then of course my undertaking experience in the cemetery as the material stuff goes down ... where goeth the essence? Thence the questions begin t' floe ...

Yah M'N? In Greek that was MU's ...

 

[Jaebius]

Is there anything harder to get an idea across that a hard-shell? Unsinkable, they believe. Excuse the list due to tripping over Phtha item of contention ... word itself is arguable! Thus mainly because of prior corruption ... difficult to avoid if not examined in severe interpretation! There's more to it that meets the Ayers ...

I watch churches from safe arms length and see things they cannot because of blinding emotional flashes ... then of course my undertaking experience in the cemetery as the material stuff goes down ... where goeth the essence? Thence the questions begin t' floe ...

Yah M'N? In Greek that was MU's ...

Isn't it amazing how, Luce, with a bit of grasping, even the toughest shells can be opened? Just like how God's love reaches even the hardest of hearts.

I totally get what you mean about watching from a distance. Stepping back gives us a clearer view of things. And those deep questions about life and essence? They're the kind that keep us growing. Remember, even in the cemetery, there's hope

 

[Luce NDs]

Isn't it amazing how, Luce, with a bit of grasping, even the toughest shells can be opened? Just like how God's love reaches even the hardest of hearts.

I totally get what you mean about watching from a distance. Stepping back gives us a clearer view of things. And those deep questions about life and essence? They're the kind that keep us growing. Remember, even in the cemetery, there's hope

Yup ... by some odd coincidence trees usually do well there ... although some plots seem toxic with defined gore ... inconvenient truths? Nothing of crisis allowed ...

 

[paradox3]

Pentecostalism and Catholicism have both come up on this thread.

Pentecostalism we have discussed many times. Catholicism not so much.

I read somewhere that approximately one third of practicing Catholics don't actually believe the business about the physical transformation to Christ's body in the mass.

Catholics seem to feel more obligation to attend church on a weekly basis than many Protestants. There are other holy days of obligation as well. Not sure if these are determined locally or at a higher level in the church.

 

[paradox3]

In the Methodist denomination, Mystic, is communion not a sacrament?

Both communion and baptism are sacraments in the United Church. Since the Methodists were one of our founding denominations, I assume they would be the same.

There are variations among Protestants though AFAIK.

 

[chansen]

Rubbish! The later schism occurred as a result of intense division between progressives and conservatives while I was pastor.
Visitors knew this and held the rebellious progressive practices of our western conference against our church

I just pointed out how the Book of Discipline was still being enforced toward the end of your tenure. The open and undisciplined defiance started as you were retiring, which occurred before you took the course on using the Internet that your District Superintendent told you to take after I email him screenshots of what you were writing online.

The open defiance of the BoD would have been a larger problem for your successor than you, yet the congregation thrived in his first couple of years. So that clearly wasn't the problem you're making it out to be.

I recently asked my former youth director about how the church's youth ministry is going and she said they have almost no children now, compared to when I was there. I'm al least glad there was an uptick in child attendance after I left, perhaps due to the young mother that is the pastor's wlfe.

Your old church left the UMC in 2022, correct? Is it just the case, then, that the bigots in the congregation who drove the disaffiliation vote were the older members? The younger families left? That the Global Methodist Church version is down on kids is a good sign. Even fewer than your Sunday School numbers?

I'm hardly braqging since I conceded that my ministry there might be characterized as an example of mainline "slow steady decline. If there was a 20% decline over time, I never noticed it and a lady recently complained to me that attendance has been down a lot this past year.

You're always bragging, about your education, your god, and your personal performance. You're dependable that way. A 20% drop is going to be noticeable, especially as you're supposed to grow a church. The 30% gain after you left would also have been more noticeable. It took Covid-19 to knock the numbers back down to where you left them. As a pastor, you have the same effect on church attendance as a global pandemic.

The disaffiliation would have further split the numbers as some would have walked away rather than join a bigoted new denomination. I don't think the GMC is going to be as transparent with attendance figures as the UMC was. I can't find published figures at this time. We'll see if they ever get back to that level of transparency.

 

[Jaebius]

Both communion and baptism are sacraments in the United Church. Since the Methodists were one of our founding denominations, I assume they would be the same.

Thank you, p3. I asked because of @Mystic's words "I wish our Protestant Holy Communion could transcend mere symbolism and mediate such a sacred experience..." This drew my attention because the idea of a sacrament is that it does transcend mere symbolism. It is a means of grace by which God is active giving spiritual strength to the believer.

There are variations among Protestants though AFAIK.

Yes, such as in the Baptist churches I've been a member of. They see communion as an ordinance, wherein it is just a symbol