Let's talk policy instead of personalities

I decided to use this lost to start a new thread.

Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:

Here’s some actual news. We need an election to see if everybody has gone Kimmio or this should remain a free country.

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What policies do you want to see in place. Please let us know without slamming or praising any specific person.

Two weeks to flatten the curve.
That’s it. It worked. Disaster averted. Stop trying to destroy our lives and country. If you want to wear a mask go ahead. If you are truly afraid of other people, wear a P100 mask. Life has risks. People went to war and died so you could be free. Don’t turn it in so easily.

Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:

Two weeks to flatten the curve.
That’s it. It worked. Disaster averted. Stop trying to destroy our lives and country. If you want to wear a mask go ahead. If you are truly afraid of other people, wear a P100 mask. Life has risks. People went to war and died so you could be free. Don’t turn it in so easily.

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Oh brother, what drama.....and by the way, we were already free before AND after the war.......

Waterfall said:

Oh brother, what drama.....and by the way, we were already free before AND after the war.......

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You consider yourself free?

Forget the statist box ... why do we have to go on living under such despotism and control? I want to leave something better to the next 7 generations.

How about building an entirely new alternative institution ... based on radically different concepts and foundations that has nothing to do with the statist model of top down hierarchical control ... rather it's completely different ... it has to do with peace and freedom and mutual respect. It's built on a foundation of mutually beneficial voluntary associations enabling human beings to meet their common wants and needs.

Mutual Aid Groups
Fraternal Organizations
Volunteer Groups
Freedom Cell Networks

It is my understanding that human beings are a social species and therefore there has to be some sort of social organization. What I would argue is that this social organization does not have to be government as we know it.

There are too many problems with the institution of government.

It is also my understanding that most of the biggest hardships, atrocities, genocides, democides, etc. that we have seen throughout the history of mankind have been at the hands of government.

Why empower someone to take a seat of government that enables them to control an entire population while sucking off public resources and public wealth to further the social engineering and manipulative programing that brainwashes the public to do the bidding of the government that works only for the continuation of that government and not the public good.

Why anyone in their right mind wants to enable a small group of people to have a monopoly on violence over the many remains a mystery to me.

Why do we need rulers?

I think that responsible evolved rational human beings are perfectly capable of self governance. They are perfectly capable of creating organizations and institutions, contracts and cooperatives whereby they can engage in business and commerce and relationships and associations with other human beings.

What is more restrictive than responsibilities ... especially for those that wish to do just as they please without pressure from other people ... the alternates in life of a purely subjective desire?

Sometimes this process is known as hedonism ... at other times Epictetus ... a Epic in the head person .. as isolated narrative! The abstract in which nothing else exists ... so that can be screwed over ... like nothing! May be the Don of afterlife to those looking for nothing ... and yet Don is a hole in the misunderstood in some ancient celtic traditions that are hard done by ... epicurean fates are thus consumed! Nothing left but the signs and icons ...

Pontifex Geronimo 13 -----Love the video above there Brother ------thanks for posting --Love John MacArthur's thinking on this issue -----

We have an enemy Loose ---Satan and he will do all he can to stop God's word from being Preached -----that is his job ---- MacArthur is well aware of Satan's tactics and has taken him to task ----so good on John for that ------Fear doesn't come from God Folks-----

Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:

Two weeks to flatten the curve.
That’s it. It worked. Disaster averted. Stop trying to destroy our lives and country. If you want to wear a mask go ahead. If you are truly afraid of other people, wear a P100 mask. Life has risks. People went to war and died so you could be free. Don’t turn it in so easily.

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Thanks for your clear answer. What is your suggestion for how to handle any second wave.

unsafe said:

Pontifex Geronimo 13 -----Love the video above there Brother ------thanks for posting --Love John MacArthur's thinking on this issue -----

We have an enemy Loose ---Satan and he will do all he can to stop God's word from being Preached -----that is his job ---- MacArthur is well aware of Satan's tactics and has taken him to task ----so good on John for that ------Fear doesn't come from God Folks-----

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I remind you that this thread is to discuss policy. What policies do you favour? How do you suggest we proceed?

Ritafee said:

How about building an entirely new alternative institution ... based on radically different concepts and foundations that has nothing to do with the statist model of top down hierarchical control ... rather it's completely different ... it has to do with peace and freedom and mutual respect. It's built on a foundation of mutually beneficial voluntary associations enabling human beings to meet their common wants and needs.

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Thanks for your perspective Rita. I agree with a lot of what you say. A top down, hierarchical, colonial government isn't necessarily in our best interests. It may be one way to provide an umbrella of sorts to ensure the well being of its citizens. One thing that comes to mind is the Canada Health Act (likely in earlier forms than what currently exists, I need to do homework) that sets out guidelines on health care values and how to implement health services. Of course, health care has become more corporate in nature and that is a concern.

I particularly like the paragraph I quoted above. I've often admired Gene Roddenberry's vision that seems to be along this line. We are in a time of transition, possibly revolution as evidenced in the US particularly. Is it possible these times can lead to changes?

Our leader spent a lot of our money trying to get his foot in the door of the coming world government. But they don’t appear to be looking for just another pretty face.

we don’t elect that government. They choose who are friends and who are enemies.

And again, like in Gulag Arcipeligo, most who thought they were friends end up being eliminated. For where we stand in history today, that book is a must read.

Northwind said:

Thanks for your clear answer. What is your suggestion for how to handle any second wave.

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Well, we could try what Sweden did for the first wave, Or follow Canadian protocols and turn down our music and wear masks during sex. The first Trudeau thought it was not the government’s business what goes on in the bedroom. The times, they are changing.

Northwind said:

I remind you that this thread is to discuss policy. What policies do you favour? How do you suggest we proceed?

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If you watched the clip, it is about standing against dangerous policies, even as he risks jail time in California.

Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:

If you watched the clip, it is about standing against dangerous policies, even as he risks jail time in California.

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I did watch a lot of it. I will admit to not getting to the end. I have a hard time watching Laura I. I also have concerns about how this will play out. I'm not convinced it is a plot against churches or religious gatherings.

I do have concerns about how policy makers will use this to their advantage.

I'll go back and finish the clip when I can stomach her.

Northwind said:

Of course, health care has become more corporate in nature and that is a concern.

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Up to a point. Speaking from experience, I know that a profitable corporation can be a caring one, too. It is too bad more corporations working in healthcare don't adopt that attitude, because it is why private healthcare gets such a bad rep. To be clear, I work for a private corporation that provides healthcare in a specific niche (home respiratory care) that is not regulated under CHA, hence Ontario can allow us to operate there.

I am once again going to point out that presenting healthcare as a US versus Canada binary is wrong and is what keeps us from moving forward on fixing the problems in our system. Opening the door to private involvement is NOT a slippery slope to a US-style system. Many other countries balance public-private systems in various ways more successfully than either we or the Americans do (Singapore is one that I have seen discussed, some EU countries as well) and we need to start looking at those models, rather than just assuming that our public system and US's heavily private one are the only options.

The healthcare system that looks very good to me (and I've got inside knowledge, because my cousin's daughter is an OR nurse, and his wife retired recently as an OT) is the NHS in the U.K.

I do agree @Mendalla. I've worked in healthcare over the years things transitioned to a more corporate model. That does make me a bit cynical because I've seen the negatives. One example is being proud of reducing "bed stays" for gall bladder surgery. As if bed stays were the most important factor. That's bean counter thinking and should not be the main concern. It is of course, one part of the equation.

When I had my surgery last year, it was day surgery. At first that scared me. At the same time, I trust the surgeon who said people do better in their own homes eating their own food. When I got to the hospital I learned that they could keep me overnight if necessary. To me, this kind of thinking blends the corporate/business principles with good patient care. There is no need to use more hospital resources than necessary. At the same time, the system is flexible enough to engage services when necessary. Health and well being of the patient is clearly part of the equation as it should be.

Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:

Well, we could try what Sweden did for the first wave, Or follow Canadian protocols and turn down our music and wear masks during sex. The first Trudeau thought it was not the government’s business what goes on in the bedroom. The times, they are changing.

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Or we could look at other countries where they were able to move quickly and almost eliminate the virus in their community. I think the ship has sailed on that one now because it is too much in the community, but it is another option. That also required an actual lockdown -- which did not happen here.

GordW said:

and almost eliminate the virus in their community. I think the ship has sailed on that one now because it is too much in the community,

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Seeking the impossible – the infinite postponement of death – we fail to fully live life.

Response to this covid is a further step in long trends of disconnection from community, from nature, and from place.

With each step of disconnection, although we may survive as separate selves, we become less and less alive.

The young and the old are especially sensitive to this disconnection.

“Among the elderly, the fallout has been truly disastrous."

Being quarantined and isolated from family is causing massive amounts of invisible suffering and decline, as well as deaths.

Anguished family members are reiterating that it's not Covid that is killing their loved one -- it's the restrictions.

A full social life is not some privileged add-on to the meeting of measurable physical needs.

It is a basic human right and a basic human necessity.

If anything, isolation afflicts the poor even more than the affluent.

The poor have less access to the technological substitutes – pallid though they are – for in-person community.

What right have we to say that the degree of suffering is less from loneliness than it is from hunger or disease?

When it drives people to stop eating, to loll listlessly day after day, even to attempt suicide, it is profound suffering indeed.

The final irony is that in the end, a policy based on minimizing deaths won’t even achieve that.

Life withers in isolation.

On a biological level, we require intercourse with microbes and, yes, viruses, to maintain bodily equilibrium.

On a social level: one prominent meta-analytic review concluded that social isolation, loneliness, and living alone, cause an average of 29%, 26%, and 32% increased likelihood of mortality, respectively.

That’s roughly the same risk level as smoking 15 cigarettes a day or habitual excessive drinking.

Politicians/medical authorities should include such considerations in their epidemiologically informed policy decisions.

Even if we could postpone death forever by isolating each person in a bubble, it still wouldn’t be worth it.

What are we doing to our children?

Will no one stand up for the value of a game of tag? A gaggle of kids piling all over each other?

I can’t put a number on the value of these compared to postponing X number of deaths.

Some might say, this is only temporary, life will go back to normal as soon as we have a vaccine.

Even ardent vaccine proponents are saying that these vaccines will offer only temporary 'protection'.

Besides, there may be new mutations, new influenza pandemics, or some other disease.

As long as we hold death postponement as highest priority, there will always be reasons to keep the children locked down.

We are today setting a precedent and establishing what is normal and acceptable.

The disabled and neurodiverse often live with the degree of isolation children are experiencing en masse now.

Many people have died or suffered due to Corona complications.

I offer my sincere condolences to them and their families.

Moreso, I offer my condolences to the young people for the lost months of play, friendship, and gathering.

It is not supposed to be this way, certainly not for long.

These are not conditions suitable for our thriving.

But my sympathies are not enough.

Erring on the side of caution and apologizing after the fact is all ways ... BAD POLICY.

My own wording is paraphrased from: