Why Do We Have to Believe Jesus is Fully God and Fully Human to be a Christian?

Seeler

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So I'm curious, when you preach, do you talk about what you believe in the message or keep it generic enough so all beliefs are addressed?
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner and the threat has moved on. However I now have a moment.
When I'm leading worship, I talk about the message Jesus brought, the Gospel (or good news) of God's love for us and all of the world. I speak about what that would have meant to the people listening at the time, and what it can mean for us today, including what it means to me.
I reviewed the stories of Jesus and how he revealed the love of God in his teachings and in his life and death.
I also speak about the Spirit shining through Jesus; and how that spirit can call to us in various ways bringing hope, joy, and abundance, while we work to bring about the kingdom of God on earth.
From the pulpit, I don't push my theology; I would consider that more appropriate for a discussion group were all would have a chance to speak about their beliefs. I hope that I come across as willing to listen to and respect the opinions of others.
 
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Luce NDs

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"the Gospel (or good news)"

Is it an indelible virtue ... hidden in the swathes and smears of fabric? Still questionable .. given all we know of ultimate beyonds! Chaos or Eris ...

The ephemeral still stirs the attent've and intentive mon ... often wishy washy ... as the Mollusc? A legend in Eire ... telus the story again ... there are a host 've thic faulk ... like vespers ...
 

Waterfall

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Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner and the threat has moved on. However I now have a moment.
When I'm leading worship, I talk about the message Jesus brought, the Gospel (or good news) of God's love for us and all of the world. I speak about what that would have meant to the people listening at the time, and what it can mean for us today, including what it means to me.
I reviewed the stories of Jesus and how he revealed the love of God in his teachings and in his life and death.
I also speak about the Spirit shining through Jesus; and how that spirit can call to us in various ways bringing hope, joy, and abundance, while we work to bring about the kingdom of God on earth.
From the pulpit, I don't push my theology; I would consider that more appropriate for a discussion group were all would have a chance to speak about their beliefs. I hope that I come across as willing to listen to and respect the opinions of others.
Thankyou that sounds respectful.
Nice that you have a chance to voice alternative views during discussion groups. Not many churches offer that.
 

Spirit Wind 7

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I believe Jesus was real, and very infused with God's love. Enough to show us how we can live together well, and be safe too.
Those days were ridden with fear of the Romans and they were always being watched. Many today are being watched every minute.
However, Jesus being really human meant he could die. I don't think God can die, so it seems the Church then was using other teachings, or stories which are close, but to bring peopple more to a submission to the church, not God's love.
That was one reason Jesus was a bit of a menace to the thinking of that day. He scared the Church's elite.
I believe God's love was already whole, and complete, without conditions, but humans have a hard time with that. We have been taught we were wretched and cursed.
I believe we were born with original blessing. Not sin. Brought up by people with duality it is hard to escape going that way. To begin with. Then we get a bit wiser, hopefully, as we mature and are presented with life and figure it out.
I cannot believe that God is inti blood scarficies. But it's a good way to make people feel guilty enough to come to something.
It seems it is certainly a backward way to teach God loves us. That's why it hasn't worked really well, or honestly.

It seems now we are seeing that and the Spirit is turning us around. Jesus staredt the turn around.
as he taught everyone, at every level of society that they were already beloved by God. So the Bible in all its wonder is still the thoughts and writings of humans in the stage they were in then. that actually makes the Cross more real to me. God had no part in this human drama as we had been given free choice. But did have Jesus's heart and soul's message lifted in a way we cannot understand. And it's for all the world to know. You are loved and holy. I cannot describe it for your inner being, but this is where my heart is.
As a child, at five, I did have an experience I can only describe as God's love. Jesus was around once a year then, at 5.
But God was talked about more, so I went with that. Jesus did tell us reams about God's love.
I sure wish the church then and hope it does now... teach that we are born with Original Blessing. I believe the world would be quite different and more about peace than gain. There so much ego out there that is out of control.

May God's love surround us and bless and all the world come to know they are loved beyond anything earth can offer.
And spread it wherever we go. For me, that is the foundation of it all. Loved by the Creator.
 

chansen

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The church needs to make everyone sinful. If everyone is blessed instead, then what do you need the church for?

Original sin is how you break them down, then build them back up and guilt them into coming back. The reason the Bible does not say what you want it to say, is that it would not have survived with "original blessing". That church would have been ransacked and overrun, probably by Christians.

Part of your problem now, as liberal, accepting Christians, is you have no good explanation as to why people should come in the first place. You don't have that hook you need to guilt people into coming. Why do you think street preachers focus on sin? That's how you get people. That's always been the key.
 

GeoFee

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If everyone is blessed instead, then what do you need the church for?
At the Big Red Church family, friends and neighbours mingle throughout the week. There are the community gardens on the front lawn. The bonfires and singalongs celebrating harvest and halloween. Sharing of our kitchen and gym for all sorts of community events. A neighbourhood knitting circle in the front lounge. All with no hint of religious expectation.

The Big Red Church is becoming a space for neighbours to interact and overcome the dominance of possessive individualism rampant in our society. We are walking away from what no longer works and towards what seems necessary for our time - neighbourliness expressed as cooperative imagination and initiative.

Why? As creative resistance to the dominance of division now conquering the general population.
 

Mystic

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The OP's question becomes meaningful when 6 additional questions are asked?
(1) Is it permissible to reject Jesus' divine self-understanding to qualify as a Christian?
(2) Is it permissible to reject the Creeds (Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, etc.) and Christology of the early church?
(3) Considered a "Christian" by whom? By the global Christian church, by the UCCan, by Jesus, or by God?
(4) But for the professing Christian there is a logically prior question: How can the earthly Jesus be fully divine and fully human at the same time
(5) Paul teaches that to become incarnate Jesus "emptied" Himself" of all His divine prerogatives Philippians 2:5-6). Jesus' human nature is restricted by all our human limitations (in knowledge, power, etc.), what does nit mean to affirm that He was nevertheless FULLY divine?
(6) How can Jesus serve as our spiritual role model if He has an unfair advantage over us by virtue of His fully divinity?
 

chansen

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Hey Berserk. Where's your Colville bible study group? They're always welcome.
 

chansen

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Downhill?
Yes. I give my cardio-vascular system the winter off. That's probably not the best idea, but I generally do.

But though I struggle with interpreting your post, I think you're just talking about a sense of community. We don't need church for community anymore. We have so many other choices. Healthier choices, too. With the threat removed, the reason to attend (above all other options), is diminished.
 

Waterfall

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The OP's question becomes meaningful when 6 additional questions are asked?
(1) Is it permissible to reject Jesus' divine self-understanding to qualify as a Christian?
(2) Is it permissible to reject the Creeds (Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, etc.) and Christology of the early church?
(3) Considered a "Christian" by whom? By the global Christian church, by the UCCan, by Jesus, or by God?
(4) But for the professing Christian there is a logically prior question: How can the earthly Jesus be fully divine and fully human at the same time
(5) Paul teaches that to become incarnate Jesus "emptied" Himself" of all His divine prerogatives Philippians 2:5-6). Jesus' human nature is restricted by all our human limitations (in knowledge, power, etc.), what does nit mean to affirm that He was nevertheless FULLY divine?
(6) How can Jesus serve as our spiritual role model if He has an unfair advantage over us by virtue of His fully divinity?
Interesting questions, can you tell us how you would answer them?
 

Waterfall

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Yes. I give my cardio-vascular system the winter off. That's probably not the best idea, but I generally do.

But though I struggle with interpreting your post, I think you're just talking about a sense of community. We don't need church for community anymore. We have so many other choices. Healthier choices, too. With the threat removed, the reason to attend (above all other options), is diminished.
Do you nurture a spiritual side chansen? If so how?
 

Ritafee

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“We would have helped history and individuals so much more if we had spent our time revealing how Christ is everywhere instead of proving that Jesus was God.” - Richard Rohr
 

Mystic

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Interesting questions, can you tell us how you would answer them?
Begin by recognizing that the Gospels imply disarming facts about just how human Jesus was. Only after those implications are fully recognized is it meaningful to assess what it might mean for Jesus to be divine in His incarnate state. It's late here, but I will illustrate what I mean in future posts.
 

Luce NDs

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Jesus is the light burning in the darkness of soul ... thus holes in the obscure may appear as an inner gnawing curiosity ... and the statement: "know thyself"!

Yet great powers would bury knowledge and sapiens ... thus the wise are numbed!

Imagine 3 've eM coming it as a shot from AEster ... hard to project?
 

Mystic

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Here are 3 more questions that imply that Jesus' full humanity affects how we should understand His divinity.
(1) Why would a sinless Messiah feel the need for John's baptism of repentance?
Jesus' reply to John's protest does not really answer this question: "It is proper in this way to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15)."
John's baptism fulfills righteousness only because it is ritual evidence of true repentance. Jesus is not merely saying that He needs to set a good example.

(2) If Jesus is fully God incarnate, why does He need to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism before He can perform miracles?
There is no evidence that He performed any miracles prior to receiving the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Indeed, it was precisely because His family did not see any special powers manifested in Jesus' earlier life that they were so skeptical of His later messianic claims. His step dad Joseph apparently dies before Jesus begins His ministry. Joseph figures in no story of the adult Jesus' life and Jesus entrusts the care of His mother from the cross to the Beloved Disciple, an act that would be unnecessary if Joseph were still alive to care for His wife. If Jesus had healing powers prior to His reception of the Holy Spirit at His baptism, why wouldn't He use them to heal His step dad?

(3) Prior to His baptism, why wasn't He impressive enough for His family members for them to later consider seriously His messianic claims?
(a) "For His own brothers did not believe in Him (John 7:5)."
(b) "When His family heard it [that He wasn't giving His audience a lunch break], they went out to physically restrain (Greek: "harpazo") Him; for they [His family] were saying, "He has gone out of His mind (Mark 3:21)!"
Some translators try to remove the offense by translating the second "they" "others."
(c) "A prophet is not without honor, except among his own kin and in his own house (Mark 6:4)."
Jesus is addressing the disrespect He feels from His own family here.
 

Waterfall

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Here are 3 more questions that imply that Jesus' full humanity affects how we should understand His divinity.
(1) Why would a sinless Messiah feel the need for John's baptism of repentance?
Jesus' reply to John's protest does not really answer this question: "It is proper in this way to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15)."
John's baptism fulfills righteousness only because it is ritual evidence of true repentance. Jesus is not merely saying that He needs to set a good example.

(2) If Jesus is fully God incarnate, why does He need to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism before He can perform miracles?
There is no evidence that He performed any miracles prior to receiving the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Indeed, it was precisely because His family did not see any special powers manifested in Jesus' earlier life that they were so skeptical of His later messianic claims. His step dad Joseph apparently dies before Jesus begins His ministry. Joseph figures in no story of the adult Jesus' life and Jesus entrusts the care of His mother from the cross to the Beloved Disciple, an act that would be unnecessary if Joseph were still alive to care for His wife. If Jesus had healing powers prior to His reception of the Holy Spirit at His baptism, why wouldn't He use them to heal His step dad?

(3) Prior to His baptism, why wasn't He impressive enough for His family members for them to later consider seriously His messianic claims?
(a) "For His own brothers did not believe in Him (John 7:5)."
(b) "When His family heard it [that He wasn't giving His audience a lunch break], they went out to physically restrain (Greek: "harpazo") Him; for they [His family] were saying, "He has gone out of His mind (Mark 3:21)!"
Some translators try to remove the offense by translating the second "they" "others."
(c) "A prophet is not without honor, except among his own kin and in his own house (Mark 6:4)."
Jesus is addressing the disrespect He feels from His own family here.
Hmmm interesting, food for thought...I need to think on this.
 

chansen

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Do you nurture a spiritual side chansen? If so how?
A "spirit" is a supernatural thing. In that sense, I do not have a "spiritual" side. I don't think any spirits follow me around.

I have a sense of wonder. I enjoy moments of exhilaration. That's why I still ski race. I don't get the rush to attribute the inexplicable to beings that are themselves inexplicable and also not seen. I don't like how so many people are unwilling to just enjoy something without paying homage to some imaginary thing they assume made it happen.
 

Mystic

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A "spirit" is a supernatural thing. In that sense, I do not have a "spiritual" side. I don't think any spirits follow me around.

I have a sense of wonder. I enjoy moments of exhilaration. That's why I still ski race. I don't get the rush to attribute the inexplicable to beings that are themselves inexplicable and also not seen. I don't like how so many people are unwilling to just enjoy something without paying homage to some imaginary thing they assume made it happen.
From a New Testament perspective, the Holy Spirit is not a ":spook," but a term to express God saving power in action. "Holy Ghost" is an unfortunate translation in the King James Bible.
 
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