Why Do We Have to Believe Jesus is Fully God and Fully Human to be a Christian?

Waterfall

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So I ask:
Why do we have to believe that Jesus is Fully God and Fully Human to be considered part of Christianity?
Is it impossible to think that we could follow Jesus even if he is fully human but anointed and chosen by God rather than believing he is God Himself? Would it really have affected Christianity if Jesus was fully human?

Give me your best argument why you believe Jesus is God/or not.
 

Waterfall

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I posted this on another thread, but I will repost it here to provide food for thought as to how it was concluded that Jesus is God....fully human and fully God.

 

Mendalla

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Pantheist version:

Because we all are. Which reframes the question to, "What makes Jesus' divinity special or more outstanding than that of the All, if indeed it is?"

And that's probably all I have that's at all relevant.

Good topic. Hope you don't mind if I put it on the front page.
 

Waterfall

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Pantheist version:

Because we all are. Which reframes the question to, "What makes Jesus' divinity special or more outstanding than that of the All, if indeed it is?"
Well, personally I think he did and does kind of stand out in the crowd and surely does point towards God, which to me doesn't require being God. I would still try to follow his teachings.

Many of his actions and teachings might even make more sense, eg. cleansing the temple...if he was fully human.
 

Luce NDs

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Jesus was a rogue in the dark business of Rome going on under the pall ... a lot of burning nonsense!
 

Redbaron

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I think it was Crossan who wrote that in the days of the Empire, when an emperor died, they were proclaimed as a god. So the people were used to some being recognized as divine-- important people, like emperors. Not backwoods carpenters' kids like Jesus. For the people of the day, Crossan says, the question wasn't so much 'Jesus is DIVINE?' as 'JESUS is divine?'
 

PilgrimsProgress

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Many of his actions and teachings might even make more sense, eg. cleansing the temple...if he was fully human
Our Uniting church here in Australia uses the Wesleyan Quadrilateral as sources of faith. Reason is an important component - "it has to make sense". I see Jesus as fully human because of his behaviour. An extraordinary human, but human nonetheless.
I don't personally think it detracts from my faith in God and following in the way of a human Jesus- but accept that many will disagree.
 

Waterfall

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I wonder, if Jesus was divine but fully human, it does mess up the belief that he will return and make everything right (as it is in heaven), but it does put more responsibility upon us to continue through his teachings to bring about God's Kingdom, rather than relying on "Magic Jesus" but instead puts more emphasis on our participation.
 
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Waterfall

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Our Uniting church here in Australia uses the Wesleyan Quadrilateral as sources of faith. Reason is an important component - "it has to make sense". I see Jesus as fully human because of his behaviour. An extraordinary human, but human nonetheless.
I don't personally think it detracts from my faith in God and following in the way of a human Jesus- but accept that many will disagree.
I looked up Wesleyan Quadrilateral, because I'd never heard of it before, so I hope you don't mind if I post a definition using Wiki so that others will be aware also:


Did wiki get the definition right or miss anything IYO?
 

Luce NDs

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I think it was Crossan who wrote that in the days of the Empire, when an emperor died, they were proclaimed as a god. So the people were used to some being recognized as divine-- important people, like emperors. Not backwoods carpenters' kids like Jesus. For the people of the day, Crossan says, the question wasn't so much 'Jesus is DIVINE?' as 'JESUS is divine?'
Thus the last 3 words of your post ... are actually a question based on uncertainty theory ... as indication of divided domains (black and white)!

Thus when a line is drawn ... look in'uit ... a letter may be absent and represented by | that later developed into a ' apos tro phe? They too leave a mark ... when encountered in syllbulls ... it may be kohl and flakey ... like mortal intelligence ... a limited affair when love hits yah ... all is lost (yare'd ead to IT)!
 

unsafe

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Are we not Spiritual being as well as having human qualities and functions ???------We are made in God's image ---God is a Spiritual being ----We are first Spiritual Beings -----we possess a Soul and we are housed in a physical body so we can function in this physical would ------We are in fact a Tri Part being like God

Do we have Blood running through our bodies -----all earthly beings have blood ----without Blood your dead -----If Jesus had blood running through His Body then He was human ----and we know He did cause He shed Blood at the cross ------Spirits have no need for Blood running through their veins -----Jesus shed much of His Blood died on a cross but yet was alive walking in His Spiritual body ------

Right Faith in what the Scripture says is needed to see Jesus as 100% human and 100% Divine -----Jesus experienced all that we humans could go through so He could go to go to His Father and plead our case for us ----


Anyone can call themselves a Christian -----there are 2 types now in my view -----Dead Faith Christians and aliveTrue Faith Christ--ians -----

We are to believe by Saving Faith not by what we think ------Scripture clearly says what is written in the Scriptures is truth ---it boils down to belief or unbelief of the scriptures -----

The word Christian is just a word that man made up----it has nothing to do with who Jesus is or was when He walked on this earth ----Jesus never used the word ----

So for me it is a heart and Faith issue for us-- not a label issue -----Labeling ourselves as a Christian means nothing ----and has nothing to do with believing Jesus was Fully Human and Fully Divine -----we either believe that Jesus was or we don't ----

People Keep saying that people need to be open minded ----well a lot depends on what you leave your mind open to -Open mindedness can cause great confusion if we don't research who is getting into our minds and what they are putting there ----discernment is needed greatly in being open minded ------it is the difference between life and death if you believe -----

This is my view
 

Luce NDs

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I looked up Wesleyan Quadrilateral, because I'd never heard of it before, so I hope you don't mind if I post a definition using Wiki so that others will be aware also:


Did wiki get the definition right or miss anything IYO?
Imagine the thought of leaving the fourth point of the compass out of the first 3! That'be Luke or the one set luce ... demonished thought! That be below the line or hidden in the dark ... cave dwellers ... down and out icons of previous Erinyes ... these are as shifty as blinded loves:

Furies. Furies, Greek Erinyes, also called Eumenides, in Greco-Roman mythology, the chthonic goddesses of vengeance. They were probably personified curses, but possibly they were originally conceived of as ghosts of the murdered.
In some traditions the word was changed to aere, air, Eire, or even Ayren ... just hide forbidden process under stiff protocol! Thus it may appear as ghost, or essence of the incarnate ... hormone concentrations arise ... the stress of fear and fight! It raises some discussion over decisions of what to do as an enigma ... discourse? And all was silent when right into Ide ... tis baffling as a great Wahl in the night ...
 

Luce NDs

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Are we not Spiritual being as well as having human qualities and functions ???------We are made in God's image ---God is a Spiritual being ----We are first Spiritual Beings -----we possess a Soul and we are housed in a physical body so we can function in this physical would ------We are in fact a Tri Part being like God

Do we have Blood running through our bodies -----all earthly beings have blood ----without Blood your dead -----If Jesus had blood running through His Body then He was human ----and we know He did cause He shed Blood at the cross ------Spirits have no need for Blood running through their veins -----Jesus shed much of His Blood died on a cross but yet was alive walking in His Spiritual body ------

Right Faith in what the Scripture says is needed to see Jesus as 100% human and 100% Divine -----Jesus experienced all that we humans could go through so He could go to go to His Father and plead our case for us ----


Anyone can call themselves a Christian -----there are 2 types now in my view -----Dead Faith Christians and aliveTrue Faith Christ--ians -----

We are to believe by Saving Faith not by what we think ------Scripture clearly says what is written in the Scriptures is truth ---it boils down to belief or unbelief of the scriptures -----

The word Christian is just a word that man made up----it has nothing to do with who Jesus is or was when He walked on this earth ----Jesus never used the word ----

So for me it is a heart and Faith issue for us-- not a label issue -----Labeling ourselves as a Christian means nothing ----and has nothing to do with believing Jesus was Fully Human and Fully Divine -----we either believe that Jesus was or we don't ----

People Keep saying that people need to be open minded ----well a lot depends on what you leave your mind open to -Open mindedness can cause great confusion if we don't research who is getting into our minds and what they are putting there ----discernment is needed greatly in being open minded ------it is the difference between life and death if you believe -----

This is my view

NOS chit ... small evidence of a smell that should be investigated as wholly Aye dis ease ... hairy vision! Live is like that ... until clipped short!

It you can't see it ... look into it deeper ... it may be demon-ishly avarice ... don't forget Ishtar! Another dark legend ... where hides the sole ...
 

revjohn

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Waterfall said:
Why do we have to believe that Jesus is Fully God and Fully Human to be considered part of Christianity?
You don't. Christianity is very broad (broader than our more narrow brothers and sisters in the faith will acknowledge) and yet, not as wide as our more progressive siblings in the faith claim.

If one cares to be identified with a more Orthodox Christianity then one will believe Jesus to be fully God and fully human even if one cannot explain how that works.

Christology matters to Christianity.

Waterfall said:
Is it impossible to think that we could follow Jesus even if he is fully human but anointed and chosen by God rather than believing he is God Himself?
It is not impossible to think that Jesus' teaching would attract individuals even if he were not God. There are a great many people attracted to individuals for whom there is no Godhood claimed. And certainly there is, within the Christian tradition the notion that Jesus is not fully divine so much as he is greatly enlightened.

Orthodox Christianity rejects the notion that Jesus is separate and completely other than God.

Waterfall said:
Would it really have affected Christianity if Jesus was fully human?
Impossible to tell. That was not a narrative which prevailed. We can see in this particular age thinkers who have grasped that particular narrative. It is too early to tell what kind of longevity their thought and teachings will have.

Waterfall said:
Give me your best argument why you believe Jesus is God/or not.
I believe Jesus is fully human and fully divine because that is the testimony that I received. It is a testimony which I see affirmed in scripture and I am not suspicious of the testimony of scripture. Do I know how that works? Not a clue. Is knowing how required? Apparently not. Do I exclude from the Christian faith those who do not believe as I do? Nope. Disagreement is not automatically division. Do I care whether or not your belief is conducive to orthodox Christian thought? Yes, yes I do. Will I use threats and intimidation to coerce you into thinking as I do? Nope. Why not? Because I am prone to slothfulness and coercion is too labour intensive.
 

Seeler

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Thank you, waterfall, or opening this interesting topic. It is the type of thing I would like to see more of and I hope it leads into meaningful discussion. Thank those who posted to it so far.



I pretty much agree with what many of you have said. To me it is very important to see Jesus as fully human, someone we can identify with and trust to identify with us. We read of Jesus growing not only in stature but in understanding. We see him impatient, tired, disappointed, frustrated, and angry. We see him thirsty or hungry. We see him praying for guidance. And we see him changing water to wine at a wedding, celebrating, rejoicing, talking to children, showing empathy with the poor and disadvantaged. Human qualities. And we see him changing his mind – at least on one occasion. This is the Jesus I follow – fully human.



But I also see the Spirit of the Holy indwelling in Jesus; so much so that his disciples and others identified him as God incarnate - and they declared "Jesus is Lord." Through Jesus Christ, the disciples, and I, came to understand the nature of God and our relationship with the Holy.



It took me a long time to accept that the Spirit also indwells in others - those who stand head and shoulders above the crowd. This would include the historic leaders of many of the world religions, including the historic figures in Christianity. And it also dwells many ordinart people today. In fact I believe that the Spirit indwells in me. And I call myself a Christian., a follower of the Way of Jesus.
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Mendalla

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Is it impossible to think that we could follow Jesus even if he is fully human but anointed and chosen by God rather than believing he is God Himself?
Just a point I did not make above: This is the "orthodox" (as much as anything is "orthodox" in UU'ism) UU Christian view of Jesus and the separation of Jesus from God is likely one of the things that started Unitarianism in the US at least down the road that led to modern UU'ism no longer being part of Christianity. Though there is a group of members who label as UU Christians and a UUCF, Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship, within North American UU'ism. Many UUs, esp. the humanist faction, go even further and drop the "anointed" part, just accepting him as a prophet/preacher akin to modern examples like Gandhi and MLK. I imagine a few go the final step and treat him as a non-existent fictional character a la chansen but that seems to be comparatively rare, even in the fellowship here which was predominantly humanist until fairly recently.
 

Waterfall

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Thank you, waterfall, or opening this interesting topic. It is the type of thing I would like to see more of and I hope it leads into meaningful discussion. Thank those who posted to it so far.



I pretty much agree with what many of you have said. To me it is very important to see Jesus as fully human, someone we can identify with and trust to identify with us. We read of Jesus growing not only in stature but in understanding. We see him impatient, tired, disappointed, frustrated, and angry. We see him thirsty or hungry. We see him praying for guidance. And we see him changing water to wine at a wedding, celebrating, rejoicing, talking to children, showing empathy with the poor and disadvantaged. Human qualities. And we see him changing his mind – at least on one occasion. This is the Jesus I follow – fully human.



But I also see the Spirit of the Holy indwelling in Jesus; so much so that his disciples and others identified him as God incarnate - and they declared "Jesus is Lord." Through Jesus Christ, the disciples, and I, came to understand the nature of God and our relationship with the Holy.



It took me a long time to accept that the Spirit also indwells in others - those who stand head and shoulders above the crowd. This would include the historic leaders of many of the world religions, including the historic figures in Christianity. And it also dwells many ordinart people today. In fact I believe that the Spirit indwells in me. And I call myself a Christian., a follower of the Way of Jesus.
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So I'm curious, when you preach, do you talk about what you believe in the message or keep it generic enough so all beliefs are addressed?
 

Waterfall

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Just a point I did not make above: This is the "orthodox" (as much as anything is "orthodox" in UU'ism) UU Christian view of Jesus and the separation of Jesus from God is likely one of the things that started Unitarianism in the US at least down the road that led to modern UU'ism no longer being part of Christianity. Though there is a group of members who label as UU Christians and a UUCF, Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship, within North American UU'ism. Many UUs, esp. the humanist faction, go even further and drop the "anointed" part, just accepting him as a prophet/preacher akin to modern examples like Gandhi and MLK. I imagine a few go the final step and treat him as a non-existent fictional character a la chansen but that seems to be comparatively rare, even in the fellowship here which was predominantly humanist until fairly recently.
You left out Muhammad
 

chansen

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I don't know that Jesus was fictional, but given how bloody important and influential he appears in the Bible, and not just how little information we have from contemporary sources, but also how sources like Josephus were clearly forged into his Antiquities of the Jews, I think it's reasonable to say that Jesus possibly, if not probably never existed in the first place. Not in the way as was recorded in the Bible.

In Jesus, Christians have a character who is no more believable than any other supposed divine being. The Greeks had their gods and demigods before Jesus, so the concept of a man-god was already old before Jesus popped up. Christianity is simply the religion, and Jesus the character, who won the popularity contest over time. But he didn't win it because of evidence.
 

Luce NDs

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I don't know that Jesus was fictional, but given how bloody important and influential he appears in the Bible, and not just how little information we have from contemporary sources, but also how sources like Josephus were clearly forged into his Antiquities of the Jews, I think it's reasonable to say that Jesus possibly, if not probably never existed in the first place. Not in the way as was recorded in the Bible.

In Jesus, Christians have a character who is no more believable than any other supposed divine being. The Greeks had their gods and demigods before Jesus, so the concept of a man-god was already old before Jesus popped up. Christianity is simply the religion, and Jesus the character, who won the popularity contest over time. But he didn't win it because of evidence.
Jesus is a product of psyche ... and many pious schools state that minds in the common populace are to be discouraged as this would go contrary to the interests of tyrants ... thus we don't have a clue how to make logos out of this as christ-o-logical! The depths are as yet unscratched ... we are best if we are loyal to the principle of not thinking about it ... thus unt hunk! In another tradition this is "hurst" ... like a bump in the night! Nyx that or is it onyx'd ... and annexed minds grow unconsciously ... then pop into existence ... maqon a grand narrative about unspeakable creation!

The pious have stonewalled it ... just listen to the right conversations to pick up onite! And we were not meant to pick on these tyrants ... "creatively said" is not something they like to hear as it suggests unraveling ends ... thus threshold fringes! The un revealed?
 
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