Mary. Mother of Jesus. Badass!

Mendalla

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So you think young girls' consent was sought & freely given? In a historic time when women were seen as chattel? And marriages were most likely arranged to suit the patriarch of the family? Seems unlikely she "agreed" in any sense that we would understand that word today.
Exactly this. I am sure it happened that families picked the "right" person sometimes, but the odds aren't good.
 

Jae

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So you think young girls' consent was sought & freely given? In a historic time when women were seen as chattel? And marriages were most likely arranged to suit the patriarch of the family? Seems unlikely she "agreed" in any sense that we would understand that word today.
No, no, I think she didn't agree. That's why I wrote that she agreed. :rolleyes:
 

Jae

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One thing the Bible makes quite clear is that Mary was a virgin at the time she gave birth to Jesus. Any notion lesser than that truth is mere human conjecture. Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until after the Messiah had been born. It's a moot question whether Mary and Joseph ever had children. Many Roman Catholic scholars say that Mary's firstborn son was her only one. Some have said that Jesus' brothers in the Bible were his cousins. Others have said that they were his step-brothers, by a former marriage of Joseph. Actually, the question has no real significance. It's for reverence's sake that some insist upon the notion of Mary's perpetual virginity.
 

Northwind

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Sidenote: when I asked about a novel about two Marys above, I meant mother of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. I didn't mean two versions of Mary, the mother of Jesus.
 
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Ritafee

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Interesting how Rita seem to forget the woman of Proverbs 31,
Not sure what you meant by that. I could not forget what I was not aware of.

As I did a bit of research, I learned that the only instructive language in the poem is directed at the poem’s intended male audience: “Praise her for all her hands have done.”

“eshet chayil" - woman of valor.

My mother lived her life with incredible bravery, wisdom, and strength.

She lived her life with valor.


Post Script ... as I wrote those words ... my mother passed over.
 
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Northwind

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Oh wow. I had no idea about emotion. :rolleyes:

What made it necessary to react to my post with a wow?
 

Jae

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Oh wow. I had no idea about emotion. :rolleyes:

What made it necessary to react to my post with a wow?
I felt, "Wow!" and thus said, "Wow!" Is it necessary to explain every emotion? I see them each as valid whether they're explained or not.
 

Northwind

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Very disrespectful.

I apologize for derailing the thread. I'm done.
 

Mendalla

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One thing the Bible makes quite clear is that Mary was a virgin at the time she gave birth to Jesus. Any notion lesser than that truth is mere human conjecture. Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until after the Messiah had been born. It's a moot question whether Mary and Joseph ever had children. Many Roman Catholic scholars say that Mary's firstborn son was her only one. Some have said that Jesus' brothers in the Bible were his cousins. Others have said that they were his step-brothers, by a former marriage of Joseph. Actually, the question has no real significance. It's for reverence's sake that some insist upon the notion of Mary's perpetual virginity.
The cult of the Virgin Mary is one of the craziest things in Christianity because any outside observer can plainly see it's a continuation of pagan traditions about virgin goddesses like Athena and Artemis. They didn't have children as Mary did, but both were perpetual virgins (Artemis was especially concern about protecting her virginity to the point that she killed at least one man just for seeing her naked:eek:) and revered for that. The priestesses of Hestia/Vesta (the so-called Vestal Virgins) would be another example that was known to early Christians.
 

Northwind

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I really liked the idea about virginity that was presented in the article. From what I understood, the word "virgin" did not have the same meaning it has now. All it meant was that the woman had not had children.

How would we view Mary if we made that slight change to her image?
 

Carolla

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What the world needs now is many more selfless women like my mother ... women that embrace their potential for unconditional love and voluntary service in their homes and in their communities.
I would actually change this just a bit - to say that the world needs more selfless PEOPLE like your mother. Men too can embrace these values ... they are not just for women ... and sadly I think we are seeing it less & less in some parts of society.

I edit to add - my own mother was similar to yours Rita - as were many of their day, IMO. She actually worked until she married - then sadly stopped work because my father thought that (true in that day) her working would imply that he was unable to provide financially for his family. I think our feminist struggles over decades have rendered this attitude about working wives obsolete - at least for now - and in much of our north american social sphere.
 

Mendalla

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I really liked the idea about virginity that was presented in the article. From what I understood, the word "virgin" did not have the same meaning it has now. All it meant was that the woman had not had children.

How would we view Mary if we made that slight change to her image?
Again, I wonder if we see the influence of the pagan cults of virgin goddesses here. Athena and Artemis were true virgins, not just women who had not had children. Perhaps the church put Mary in that light because of those pre-existing cults.
 

Jae

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I really liked the idea about virginity that was presented in the article. From what I understood, the word "virgin" did not have the same meaning it has now. All it meant was that the woman had not had children.

How would we view Mary if we made that slight change to her image?
If Mary hadn't been a virgin (a person who'd never had sex), Jesus would have been conceived and born in original sin. If that had been the case, he would have been unable to die for the world's sins, because he himself would have been a sinner. It would mean that rescue isn't possible for us and we are all to be condemned. Praise God that this isn't the case. Mary had never had sex, Jesus was born untainted by sin and in time he died for the sins of us all. Amen, glory and hallelujah.
 

Carolla

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I really liked the idea about virginity that was presented in the article. From what I understood, the word "virgin" did not have the same meaning it has now. All it meant was that the woman had not had children.

How would we view Mary if we made that slight change to her image?
Interesting to contemplate. So I guess Mary's elderly cousin Elizabeth - also pregnant with a first child concurrrent with Mary - would also have been considered a virgin.
 

blackbelt1961

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It seems to me that round about every Christmastime, there are those who feel the itch to try to reinvent Mary. Either they make too much of her (see: immaculate conception) or too little (see: she wasn't really a virgin).

Mary, the real Mary, as she's presented in the Bible, was given news, that she, the poor maiden, should mother the Messiah. She asked how that could happen. She knew herself to be a virgin. Gabriel told her that God would do something unique. The Spirit would make it so that a child would be produced from the virgin only. God's power would come upon her, and so the child which would be born would be holy.
for some, God is just a concept, therefore miracles, the supernatural cannot exist so they rationalize miracles away like the virgin birth.
 
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DaisyJane

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"What the world needs now is many more selfless women like my mother ... women that embrace their potential for unconditional love and voluntary service in their homes and in their communities."

Rita. First,I must start this post by saying that I am truly sorry your mom is in palliative care. She sounds like a truly remarkable woman.

However I cannot agree to the essentialist notion that women are called to live their "potential for unconditional love and voluntary service in their homes and communities".

First, we are all called to unconditional and radically inclusive love. Male, female, and all who identify on the spectrum anywhere between the two poles. Unconditional love is not a unique quality of women.

But this idea that women are called to voluntary service in the home and the community is deeply problematic and serves to limit the potential of women. It also serves to trap women in invisible, unpaid caregiving roles that can easily be exploited. Emphasis on the kenotic, sacrificial qualifies of mothering often translates to woman caring in unsustainable conditions with no real options to place limits on their ability to care, particularly in more extreme forms of extreme parental caregiving. Woman are often coerced into caregiving roles and these romantic notions of a selfless, voluntary, saintly mother can be downright dangerous for women involved in extreme caregiving roles. They also serve society well because it ensures a deep well of free caregiving services.

This is not the mommy wars. Many women choose to embrace a homemaker and caregiver role and that is wonderful. But it is inappropriate to foist such roles upon women. We need communities that encourage women and girls to fully explore their potential, whatever that might be. We need women to feel able to explore their calling in the world, not be told by (often, but not always) men what that calling is, either directly, or indirectly through romantic notions of motherhood.
 

Ritafee

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Perhaps the emphasis is not so much on a technical or medical definition of virginity as it is on the condition of a person’s heart. Perhaps Mary was pure of heart.
 

DaisyJane

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Interesting to contemplate. So I guess Mary's elderly cousin Elizabeth - also pregnant with a first child concurrrent with Mary - would also have been considered a virgin.
If I understood the article suggested the term virgin was not used. Rather, a Greek word (would need to look it up), was used that indicated that Mary had not had a child, not necessarily that she had not had sex. On this basis, then yes, the same word could be used to describe Elizabeth.
 
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