Lust of the flesh, porn, erotica........

Carolla

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Welcome Rachel - great see you jumping right in! I do agree with you wholeheartedly about the "C" word!
 
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Going to jump right on here. There is a subtext weaving through this thread, one that mirrors the views of many religions, that sex is sinful. Even the act of having sexual feelings not acted upon (The most basic meaning of lust is an unquenchable desire for sex) is sinful.

Jae posted the following earlier: “I believe that sex is for within marriage – for between a wife and her husband and shared with no one else. I see anything other than that to be against God’s design for intimacy and hence to be sinful.”

There is nothing wrong with having strong beliefs and acting accordingly. What you have to be careful of is using them to judge others. I see that happen quite a bit, probably more than many of you due to my background and experiences. Perhaps not.

My belief is somewhat different. I believe that sex is an act between two or more consenting adults regardless of their relationship(s) and to be shared as they choose. As for God’s design, I can’t speak for that – he, she, it, they have yet to share it with me. I really liked Mendalla’s earlier break down of consent. It does involve more than just the people involved in the actual act of intimacy. It involves any and all partners who might be affected as well.

A brief interjection. When discussing sex you’re going to see me use the ‘C’ word quite often. Consent. With it, sex is a wonderful thing, no matter how, or with whom, you choose to practice it. Without it is immoral and evil. That’s an absolute for me.
So, to bring this all together (for now, I have so much more to say on the subject, but I prefer bite size thoughts) As long as all the parties involved are consenting (another topic I will address at some point), I fail to see how the act of watching porn can be sinful.
A few things I am going to point out.

-As with anything, overdoing it to the point of obsession is not healthy.

-Porn often gives us unrealistic ideas and expectations that are passed on to the partner. What, you don’t like to be tied up and spanked? I see it all the time on Pornhub!

-Porn is hard on body image. Not all of us look like porn stars or ever will!

Those are a few of the cons. Now, a few of the pros.

-Not everyone has a partner and having an outlet, in the form of sexual fantasies or porn, can be helpful.

-It’s a good way to safely experiment with what might make you tick, sexually, without trying it out with a partner and suddenly realizing that it’s really not your thing.

-It’s fun. Especially if you’re watching with a partner. Nothing wrong with a little (or a lot of) kink in any relationship.

Back to the “sin” question. For me, a “sin” is an act that harms someone. I have trouble with the idea that the act of watching a porn video is harmful to most healthy adults.

As for lust, it’s perfectly natural to lust after someone. If it’s a partner, then wow, that’s awesome. You should be lusting after your partner. If it’s a hot chick/dude or a celebrity, and you keep it in the fantasy realm, ie, in your head, it’s perfectly natural and very human. Personally, the whole sin game has always felt more like a way to keep people in line. If you look at the seven deadly sins, wouldn’t you say that most of them, done in small amounts, are harmless? Sloth? Gluttony? Envy? Lust? Pride? Wrath? Lust? Some of those, if not taken to the extreme, are actually beneficial. A little pride never hurt anyone – you should take pride in something done well - and laying around slothfully on a Sunday afternoon is a great way to recharge your batteries.
Hi Rachel. Welcome. What about when you aren't sure if the women (and men) "acting" in the porn aren't being exploited by bosses abusing power, business interests, greed of those standing to profit most from it, or are not abusing substances to get through their required work?
 

Rachel

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Hi Rachel. Welcome. What about when you aren't sure if the women (and men) "acting" in the porn aren't being exploited by bosses, business interests, greed of those standing to profit most from it, or are not abusing substances to get through their required work?
Very good point, one I actually intend to address at some point in the near future, probably tomorrow. :)
 

BetteTheRed

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Good. Please let us try to keep the subject unconflated with other sex work (i.e. prostitution) if we can?
 

Mendalla

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There is definitely overlap between the worlds of corporate visual porn and prostitution. Porn actresses and models who use that to promote their stripping and escorting is the obvious one.

However there is a lot of porn/erotica that falls outside that overlap. Most written erotica, for instance.

So I think there's room for discussing non-porn sex work here but let's not make it the focus. In particular, debating decriminalization/legalization of sex work deserves its own thread and would be off topic here IMHO.
 

Luce NDs

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Going to jump right on here. There is a subtext weaving through this thread, one that mirrors the views of many religions, that sex is sinful. Even the act of having sexual feelings not acted upon (The most basic meaning of lust is an unquenchable desire for sex) is sinful.

Jae posted the following earlier: “I believe that sex is for within marriage – for between a wife and her husband and shared with no one else. I see anything other than that to be against God’s design for intimacy and hence to be sinful.”

There is nothing wrong with having strong beliefs and acting accordingly. What you have to be careful of is using them to judge others. I see that happen quite a bit, probably more than many of you due to my background and experiences. Perhaps not.

My belief is somewhat different. I believe that sex is an act between two or more consenting adults regardless of their relationship(s) and to be shared as they choose. As for God’s design, I can’t speak for that – he, she, it, they have yet to share it with me. I really liked Mendalla’s earlier break down of consent. It does involve more than just the people involved in the actual act of intimacy. It involves any and all partners who might be affected as well.

A brief interjection. When discussing sex you’re going to see me use the ‘C’ word quite often. Consent. With it, sex is a wonderful thing, no matter how, or with whom, you choose to practice it. Without it is immoral and evil. That’s an absolute for me.
So, to bring this all together (for now, I have so much more to say on the subject, but I prefer bite size thoughts) As long as all the parties involved are consenting (another topic I will address at some point), I fail to see how the act of watching porn can be sinful.
A few things I am going to point out.

-As with anything, overdoing it to the point of obsession is not healthy.

-Porn often gives us unrealistic ideas and expectations that are passed on to the partner. What, you don’t like to be tied up and spanked? I see it all the time on Pornhub!

-Porn is hard on body image. Not all of us look like porn stars or ever will!

Those are a few of the cons. Now, a few of the pros.

-Not everyone has a partner and having an outlet, in the form of sexual fantasies or porn, can be helpful.

-It’s a good way to safely experiment with what might make you tick, sexually, without trying it out with a partner and suddenly realizing that it’s really not your thing.

-It’s fun. Especially if you’re watching with a partner. Nothing wrong with a little (or a lot of) kink in any relationship.

Back to the “sin” question. For me, a “sin” is an act that harms someone. I have trouble with the idea that the act of watching a porn video is harmful to most healthy adults.

As for lust, it’s perfectly natural to lust after someone. If it’s a partner, then wow, that’s awesome. You should be lusting after your partner. If it’s a hot chick/dude or a celebrity, and you keep it in the fantasy realm, ie, in your head, it’s perfectly natural and very human. Personally, the whole sin game has always felt more like a way to keep people in line. If you look at the seven deadly sins, wouldn’t you say that most of them, done in small amounts, are harmless? Sloth? Gluttony? Envy? Lust? Pride? Wrath? Lust? Some of those, if not taken to the extreme, are actually beneficial. A little pride never hurt anyone – you should take pride in something done well - and laying around slothfully on a Sunday afternoon is a great way to recharge your batteries.
You are so moderate in what may appear across the lines draw and mediocre? Perhaps a bit of social psychology ... many of my pious acquaintances say there is no psyche and thus it must be imagined ... thus conjured from nothing? Call it my character (attributive) flaw in their minds as their psyche took off in high flight ... exorcised by fixed edges? Let me return to The Razor's Edge --- sum r'S Et mon!

As well ET ... so consumed by nothing ... that icon in the sky by Knight Rising? Accept the story and there's something inut mystery?

Then Alice's Looking Glass suggests that Alice doesn't live here any Moors .. and even god moves and alters as love is fickle ... a great book forewarned us ... Doon! Some say dun and you never even noticed the detailing ...
 

Luce NDs

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Good. Please let us try to keep the subject unconflated with other sex work (i.e. prostitution) if we can?
Mutual affairs seem so easy ... yet there's always someone trying to control how one may even hate non-mutual affairs ... can these be exorcised and denied? If one loved everything would and impossible situation occur as an incident? Some do not like to be loved in all places, times and lighted situations ... Levite there
 

Luce NDs

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Good. Please let us try to keep the subject unconflated with other sex work (i.e. prostitution) if we can?
Tis the extension of the Job tale ... sometime a work of passion? There are variances ... hung as valance, in lib*erty ... hit eM again B' Ert!

Love can sometimes be in blind Ernest! Site Toby scene ... thus it SET's ... arresting thoughts?
 

Luce NDs

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Interesting ... last night as serving at a UCW Christmas Dinner Meeting I had discussion with another server on encounters in bars that catered to stripping, dancing and other stuff falling in the lapse ...

On man told of bein' enthused about going there until he found his daughter on the stage ... she too appeared to be enthused about being a center of a tension!

I once was caught in a corporate situation where we were taken into a lapse danse situation. I drew attention by not contributing further but couldn't ignore the beauty bared ... like being is a garden with Venus exposed? One of the performers commented on my quiet nature and started a conversation with me (to the consternation of those trying the "make" function. Thes young ladies must get bored with the passes!

I asked how she got into this "obvious" situation. She replied in familiar dialect that she worked 2 nights a week for 4 hours and made enough to pay all life expenses while studying at university. There are always other sides of mythical rye activities ... and dreams of having their own sugar daddy! You can see that when the eyes go dark at other passes ...

Honky Tonk Angels? Now that's the case when in the dark state (unknown) dreams at home are not fulfilled! It is a complex issue so don't conflate it as simple ... life is a complex affair ... if we're to love one another without screw-up ... like polite*Heh ... grass mon! The place of natural descent ... yup always someone prime for a fall --- the partisan side of the subtle God! Subsistence be ware?
 

Pavlos Maros

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I personally have no issues with porn or the porn industry. But I do with hypocritical statements. So with that in mind.
DaisyJane said:
I disagreed with the notion that porn=lust of the flesh. I would probably also have some issues with the notion of porn=sin, though I need a bit of time to unpack that. For me, the issue would be consent, and most particularly the consent of the people in the pornographic images. If the porn was produced without exploitation, and mutually consenting adults enjoy consuming porn, I fail to see sin.
Correct. However you used two terms consent and exploitation. Could you define where one becomes the other if both have been paid for their service?
DaisyJane said:
When I view porn I see exploited women and embodied images of male sexual fantasies.
Solely a problem of your making, as you haven't defined the above, question I posed.
 

Mendalla

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Correct. However you used two terms consent and exploitation. Could you define where one becomes the other if both have been paid for their service?
Even leaving aside those forced into the sex trade by abusers/exploiters, there are many sex workers whose consent is grudging at best. They are in it because they drawn in through addictions or they don't really have any other way to make money (the stereotypical woman stripping to pay for college that Luce mentions above). So they may be technically consenting, but circumstances make it exploitation nonetheless. Consent under duress or economic pressure isn't really consent freely given. Certainly, there are sex workers who are in it of their free choice (independent escorts, for instance, are often quite well off and do it because they want to), but that's hardly the majority at least here in North America. Perhaps the UK is different but I find that unlikely.

Now the solution is, of course, not to go after porn/sex work but fix the economic or other circumstances involved so consent can be freely given. That's a subject more properly for a thread in Politics.
 

Luce NDs

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I personally have no issues with porn or the porn industry. But I do with hypocritical statements. So with that in mind.
Correct. However you used two terms consent and exploitation. Could you define where one becomes the other if both have been paid for their service?
Solely a problem of your making, as you haven't defined the above, question I posed.
Thus plurality in BS in the two way world as whirred! Expect spin when arresting the movable ...
 

chansen

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Going to jump right on here. There is a subtext weaving through this thread, one that mirrors the views of many religions, that sex is sinful. Even the act of having sexual feelings not acted upon (The most basic meaning of lust is an unquenchable desire for sex) is sinful.

Jae posted the following earlier: “I believe that sex is for within marriage – for between a wife and her husband and shared with no one else. I see anything other than that to be against God’s design for intimacy and hence to be sinful.”

There is nothing wrong with having strong beliefs and acting accordingly. What you have to be careful of is using them to judge others. I see that happen quite a bit, probably more than many of you due to my background and experiences. Perhaps not.

My belief is somewhat different. I believe that sex is an act between two or more consenting adults regardless of their relationship(s) and to be shared as they choose. As for God’s design, I can’t speak for that – he, she, it, they have yet to share it with me. I really liked Mendalla’s earlier break down of consent. It does involve more than just the people involved in the actual act of intimacy. It involves any and all partners who might be affected as well.

A brief interjection. When discussing sex you’re going to see me use the ‘C’ word quite often. Consent. With it, sex is a wonderful thing, no matter how, or with whom, you choose to practice it. Without it is immoral and evil. That’s an absolute for me.
So, to bring this all together (for now, I have so much more to say on the subject, but I prefer bite size thoughts) As long as all the parties involved are consenting (another topic I will address at some point), I fail to see how the act of watching porn can be sinful.
A few things I am going to point out.

-As with anything, overdoing it to the point of obsession is not healthy.

-Porn often gives us unrealistic ideas and expectations that are passed on to the partner. What, you don’t like to be tied up and spanked? I see it all the time on Pornhub!

-Porn is hard on body image. Not all of us look like porn stars or ever will!

Those are a few of the cons. Now, a few of the pros.

-Not everyone has a partner and having an outlet, in the form of sexual fantasies or porn, can be helpful.

-It’s a good way to safely experiment with what might make you tick, sexually, without trying it out with a partner and suddenly realizing that it’s really not your thing.

-It’s fun. Especially if you’re watching with a partner. Nothing wrong with a little (or a lot of) kink in any relationship.

Back to the “sin” question. For me, a “sin” is an act that harms someone. I have trouble with the idea that the act of watching a porn video is harmful to most healthy adults.

As for lust, it’s perfectly natural to lust after someone. If it’s a partner, then wow, that’s awesome. You should be lusting after your partner. If it’s a hot chick/dude or a celebrity, and you keep it in the fantasy realm, ie, in your head, it’s perfectly natural and very human. Personally, the whole sin game has always felt more like a way to keep people in line. If you look at the seven deadly sins, wouldn’t you say that most of them, done in small amounts, are harmless? Sloth? Gluttony? Envy? Lust? Pride? Wrath? Lust? Some of those, if not taken to the extreme, are actually beneficial. A little pride never hurt anyone – you should take pride in something done well - and laying around slothfully on a Sunday afternoon is a great way to recharge your batteries.
Where did we find this one? Where can we find more of her?
 

Ritafee

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Random gay man, for sure. Less likely to be a molester for starters. (Yes, I realize you're probably being ironic or something here, but it's also a fairly serious question for some)
So inferred hate speech against Catholic Priests is acceptable then?
 

Mendalla

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So inferred hate speech against Catholic Priests is acceptable then?
Agreed. I was probably out of line there. At the same time, I will bet that the percentage of abusers is probably no higher and quite possibly lower in the gay male community than it is in the priesthood. And the church's continued failure to act suggests that priests who are not direct abusers are abusers by proxy due to their protection of the abusers. Bottom line is that until the church starts handing its bad eggs over to the law and the law starts acting, I would be loathe to trust a priest with a child.
 

Ritafee

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Agreed. I was probably out of line there. At the same time, I will bet that the percentage of abusers is probably no higher and quite possibly lower in the gay male community than it is in the priesthood. And the church's continued failure to act suggests that priests who are not direct abusers are abusers by proxy due to their protection of the abusers. Bottom line is that until the church starts handing its bad eggs over to the law and the law starts acting, I would be loathe to trust a priest with a child.
I suggest that anyone who is not a direct sexual abuser is an abuser by proxy if they consent to protecting any abuser.

It is well documented that in most cases the child 'abuser' turns out to be someone known to the child through communal involvement.

If you are loathe to trust a priest with a child it would stand to reason that you should also be loath to trust a ...

Neighbor, police officer, judge, doctor, counselor, teacher, coach, music instructor, babysitter, mother, father, brother, sister grandparent, aunt, uncle, cousin, stepparent, government agent ... with a child.

The sexual predator will often be employed in a position that involves daily contact with children.

If not employed, they will put themselves in a position to do volunteer work with children, often in a supervisory capacity such as sports coaching, contact-sport instruction, unsupervised tutoring or a position where they have opportunity to spend unsupervised time with a child.

The sexual abuser often seeks out shy, handicapped, and withdrawn children, or those who come from troubled homes or underprivileged homes. They then shower them with attention, gifts, taunt them with trips to desirable places like amusement parks, zoos, concerts, the beach, and other such places.

Sexual abusers work to master their manipulative skills and often unleash them on troubled children by first becoming their friend, building the child's self-esteem. They may refer to the child as special or mature, appealing to their need to be heard and understood, to then entice them with adult activities with sexual content like x-rated movies or pictures. Grooming like this often goes along with consumption of alcohol or drugs to hamper the ability to resist or recall events that occurred.

Minor children cannot consent, and sex without consent is rape ...

Some religious priests are rapists but not all rapists are religious priests!
 
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