Let's talk about sin
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PilgrimsProgress
Well-Known Member
Some, but not all Christians, think climate change is a reality and mankind is responsible. (And many Christians that I know personally are involved in activist movements that highlight people's responsibility and advocate against the burning of fossil fuels).
I agree with this statement. But, I am not the group, I am an individual. Any group that you can care to name is made up of individuals - who often disagree within the group structure about all sorts of issues. Most of us start out on mother's milk - including murderers - but to say that mother's milk "causes" murderers is erroneous .
Another sweeping generalization.... I, along with many, worked very hard to bring about the recent acceptance of same sex marriage in the Uniting Church of Australia.
I have found that the most effective way to bring about change in any organization is from within.
PilgrimsProgress
Well-Known Member
Like many progressive Christians, I don't believe that Jesus died for our sins - we are responsible for our own "sins".
I believe that Jesus died as a political assassination. The "sin" or responsibility for Jesus's death lies with those that ordered, carried out, or agreed with him being killed.
I suspect it's more complicated than that....especially when it required a kiss from Judas to point Jesus out to the guards. It would appear that Jesus wasn't easily recognized by the authorities.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
70 years ago in Sunday school I learned that humans are part of and in relationship with God's world. We were dependent upon it to feed and clothe us and give us shelter, and we were responsible for taking care of God's world. As rural people we lived close to the forest and the land and by the work of our hands we grew food, raised animals, and looked to the forest for wood to burn, or building houses; as well as providing fiddleheads and berries, fish and game, and oxygen to breathe. We respected the world and were thankful.
A decade later, I remember visiting this and the region and discussing with church people their concern about the paving over of rich farmland, and orchards, to build housing developments, highways and commercial buildings – secular interests not connected with the natural world we live in.
It seems to me that Christians (at least the ones that I knew) were very much concerned with conservation. In many Bible verses in both testaments so this concern, and our responsibilities to care for and live in harmony with one another on the earth our home. We haven't always done a good job.
About 15 years ago, give or take, my church invited David Suzuki to lead a weeklong seminar. It so happened that that year our river floods, and many of the streets were closed as the water lapped within a block of the church. A young teen in the congregation asked if the flood was caused by global warming?
Suzuki's answer was along the lines that he could not tell about this particular flood – records show that this river has a record of flooding two or three times a century – but while floods
seem to belittled getting more frequent and more severe.
This prophecy seems accurate. In the last two years we have experienced two major floods.
It seems to me that churches are very concerned about destruction of our planet, including global warming or climate change. What are we doing about it, besides recognizing that it is a spiritual and theological problem? Well, besides individual efforts to cut down on waste, to reduce, reuse and recycle, many church people educate themselves about the problems, take part in protests, write letters to government officials, and vote for the party that best represents their values. (The leader of the Green party in New Brunswick sits with his family behind me and church).
What is this going to do with the topic of this thread – sin? It seems to me that sin is when we fail to take care of and nurture our relationship with one another, were collectively when we destroy our living green forests with clear cutting, pollute our lakes and streams that provide our water, and poison our atmosphere – we sin.
A decade later, I remember visiting this and the region and discussing with church people their concern about the paving over of rich farmland, and orchards, to build housing developments, highways and commercial buildings – secular interests not connected with the natural world we live in.
It seems to me that Christians (at least the ones that I knew) were very much concerned with conservation. In many Bible verses in both testaments so this concern, and our responsibilities to care for and live in harmony with one another on the earth our home. We haven't always done a good job.
About 15 years ago, give or take, my church invited David Suzuki to lead a weeklong seminar. It so happened that that year our river floods, and many of the streets were closed as the water lapped within a block of the church. A young teen in the congregation asked if the flood was caused by global warming?
Suzuki's answer was along the lines that he could not tell about this particular flood – records show that this river has a record of flooding two or three times a century – but while floods
seem to belittled getting more frequent and more severe.
This prophecy seems accurate. In the last two years we have experienced two major floods.
It seems to me that churches are very concerned about destruction of our planet, including global warming or climate change. What are we doing about it, besides recognizing that it is a spiritual and theological problem? Well, besides individual efforts to cut down on waste, to reduce, reuse and recycle, many church people educate themselves about the problems, take part in protests, write letters to government officials, and vote for the party that best represents their values. (The leader of the Green party in New Brunswick sits with his family behind me and church).
What is this going to do with the topic of this thread – sin? It seems to me that sin is when we fail to take care of and nurture our relationship with one another, were collectively when we destroy our living green forests with clear cutting, pollute our lakes and streams that provide our water, and poison our atmosphere – we sin.
Ritafee
Is Being Human
I agree.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Very well said, indeed.
If God is the eternal in, on and about us ... the mortals ... much of God would be beyond us and thus a mystery to learn about ... perhaps a reasonable purpose?
Now if one examines the nature of Ahab and Jezebel ... the latter was the nature worshiper who was put down by absolute authority of the Jewish or Judean Law (roue's).
In Lord Acton;s expression ... there is always something corrupt about those wishing to take the part of the eternal stretch ... thus ankh, or anxious attributes of emotions and PTSD as anon or after the fact!
Orson Welles dealt with this in the controversial dark movie titled the Deep! You could run into this theological see whichever way you turn!
Normal people do not like profound or complex eternalists! Only physically can the high be bought down as hubris and nemesis ... the ups and downs of impact with distant dimensions! Wrinkles in time! ... in the abstract this may go on and on ... as a great stretch of soul ... no matter how turned out!
The there are those that believe that the story of eternal can be edited into a simple tome! Thus fluid word structures ... fete noire? (an expression without accurate translation due to the extent ... extant nature?
I don't know for sure as it remains ... beyond all mortals! That by association may be immortal ... and so it go'st according to Samuel Clements Jr in finite satyr! The deamon to those wishing to confine the matter of folk literature! A bit foo Y?
Thus rabid foo-foos ... such discourse may leave many in fuzz state due to the wrong leaning of BS! Aerei as the Hindi forerunner of the concept of brahmaw ... flawed!
Appreciate the scattered nature of mortal souls ... and Hairy Jeremiah Johnson!
Now if one examines the nature of Ahab and Jezebel ... the latter was the nature worshiper who was put down by absolute authority of the Jewish or Judean Law (roue's).
In Lord Acton;s expression ... there is always something corrupt about those wishing to take the part of the eternal stretch ... thus ankh, or anxious attributes of emotions and PTSD as anon or after the fact!
Orson Welles dealt with this in the controversial dark movie titled the Deep! You could run into this theological see whichever way you turn!
Normal people do not like profound or complex eternalists! Only physically can the high be bought down as hubris and nemesis ... the ups and downs of impact with distant dimensions! Wrinkles in time! ... in the abstract this may go on and on ... as a great stretch of soul ... no matter how turned out!
The there are those that believe that the story of eternal can be edited into a simple tome! Thus fluid word structures ... fete noire? (an expression without accurate translation due to the extent ... extant nature?
I don't know for sure as it remains ... beyond all mortals! That by association may be immortal ... and so it go'st according to Samuel Clements Jr in finite satyr! The deamon to those wishing to confine the matter of folk literature! A bit foo Y?
Thus rabid foo-foos ... such discourse may leave many in fuzz state due to the wrong leaning of BS! Aerei as the Hindi forerunner of the concept of brahmaw ... flawed!
Appreciate the scattered nature of mortal souls ... and Hairy Jeremiah Johnson!
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Ritafee
Is Being Human
The definition of “religion” from Black’s Law Dictionary:
"Religion. Man's relation (to Divinity), to reverence, worship, obedience, and submission to mandates and precepts of (supernatural or) superior beings. In its broadest sense includes all forms of belief in the existence of superior beings exercising power over human beings by volition, imposing rules of conduct, with future rewards and punishments."
X. Covet thy neighbor's goods and all that is thy neighbors, for thereby doth our Order prosper.
"Religion. Man's relation (to Divinity), to reverence, worship, obedience, and submission to mandates and precepts of (supernatural or) superior beings. In its broadest sense includes all forms of belief in the existence of superior beings exercising power over human beings by volition, imposing rules of conduct, with future rewards and punishments."
X. Covet thy neighbor's goods and all that is thy neighbors, for thereby doth our Order prosper.
PilgrimsProgress
Well-Known Member
I suspect the Judas kiss was an elaboration to the story - surely Judas could have just as easily point Jesus out?
Also, although Jesus was well-known to the authorities (why else would they want to crucify him?) it's believable that the Roman soldiers wouldn't recognize Jesus by sight..........
The trouble with the Bible is that it's not an historical document - some of it is just passed on by word of mouth in story form. I suspect some of it is fact, and some of it is human imagination....... It's the reader that decides -and who's to say which reader is correct?
Belief in superior beings ... may expose equitable beans to a come down and thus that dippy move when approaching mona r Kist!
Is that dippity due to power of regina ... or other knowledge? Alternate wisdom ... unknown and thus hiero gamma ... she was a grand lass!
chansen
Still waiting...
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
This sort of thing happens regularly. What's special about the Jesus case, then?
Ritafee
Is Being Human
To a fundamental 'Statheist' like yourself nothing. It is par for the course.
All must 'worship' (obey) the high priests of your religion.
For those who refuse to convert - the wages of their SIN will bring them only suffering and death.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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- She/Her/Her
Nothing. Jesus is a metaphor for all people who suffer and die unnecessarily due to systemic 'sin'. Matthew chapter, "and whatever you do to/for the least of these, you do to me". Hunger, nakedness, imprisonment, loneliness, homelessness, are all failures of the 'system', not individual failings.
PilgrimsProgress
Well-Known Member
This.........
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Exactly. He's not the only one, just the one that the Christian tradition chooses to focus on. Where traditional and evangelical Christianity goes off the rails is in the insistence on some kind of exclusivity for Jesus, that he is some kind of paragon that all must accept as the paramount such figure. The fact is, one could as easily take the stories of people likes MLK, Jr. or Bobby Sands or M. K. Gandhi as religious figureheads (sorry, couldn't think of any women offhand and it's not meant as an exhaustive list anyhow), though they have the baggage of being in living memory for many people so that their warts are better known. Also, our modern concept of scholarly history kind of keeps people from building a hagiography around them (though some of the language around Gandhi and MLK, Jr. comes close at times).
Ritafee
Is Being Human
The vast majority of environmental injustice perpetrators in North America are 'Statheists' (some but not all of them call themselves atheists) ... In Canada ... without a SIN ... no individual 'citizen', whether they call themselves christian or atheist, can ever be invested by the power of 'your honorable worships' to legitimately commit crimes against the nature of humanity for their 'namesake'.
You are free to interpret 'as you wish' ... but according to the individual supreme authors of the books and books of Criminal Acts and the books and books of Judges as laid out in the Old and New Testament Gospels of Governments ... not knowing the laws (too numerous and contradictory to ever decipher coherently) will not protect you from due process of the 'power of the law' to enforce your compliance with the law and it will be recorded for or against your SIN card one way or the other.