Did He Really Have to Die the Way He Did?

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Redbaron

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Another thought provoking article from Pantheon. Discuss.
 

Mendalla

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I like his take on it. I have always seen the Crucifixion as the necessary prelude to the Resurrection, not the main show. Overcoming death is the message, so death had to be present, but it is the Resurrection that opens possibilities, not death. So to that degree, how Jesus died may not matter.

That said, I think Jesus being executed does matter to some degree. He died because of the powers and potentates of the world. It was not a natural demise, but a horribly unnatural one. And it is overcoming that kind of death, death that is the product of human sin rather than natural process, that really matters if we want to change the world. A world where everyone died a natural death of old age, rather than being stabbed or shot or nailed to a cross, rather than starving or getting preventable diseases, would be well on the way to the Kingdom.
 

Waterfall

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I seem to remember the story of the goats during Yom Kipper.....where two goats are offered for sin offerings each year. One is selected by "lot" or Cleromancy and sent out into the desert and the other is offered to the lord for a sin offering or sacrifice. Sound familiar?
It is very close to the the story of Jesus and Barrabas and which one they choose to be released and which one is chosen for the Lord.
 

revjohn

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"What if?"

"Now Imagine . . ."

Not a very compelling argument for or against. It makes good discussion starter. It doesn't really engage the text in any way save to say pretend the text was different.

Does Jesus fail? Not according to the narrative. Sure, he is rejected. Is that the end? Nope. Rejected, beaten, and ridiculed. Is that the end? Hardly.

Grace triumphs. Is that the end?

Apparently it is.

What if we spent less time imagining what if?

What if we imagined grace liberates. What would we be free to do then?
 
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Waterfall

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Grace triumphs. Is that the end?

Apparently it is.

What if we spent less time imagining what if?

What if we imagined grace liberates. What would we be free to do then?
But do we need a crucifixion and resurrection for that to happen?
 

revjohn

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Waterfall said:
But do we need a crucifixion and resurrection for that to happen?
Can't really test an alternative can we?

What's done is done.

Of course, since it is a matter of faith, one need not accept it. Inventing a more appealing alternative makes for a more comfortable faith maybe. I'm not sure it makes for a transformative one.
 

BetteTheRed

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The scapegoat. And one is Jesus, the Son of Man. The other is literally bar Abbas, "Daddy's son".
 

Waterfall

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Can't really test an alternative can we?

What's done is done.

Of course, since it is a matter of faith, one need not accept it. Inventing a more appealing alternative makes for a more comfortable faith maybe. I'm not sure it makes for a transformative one.
Well I guess what I'm saying is, didn't God and Jesus teach and offer grace before the crucifixion? And if that's true, then what was Jesus' purpose to walk into being crucified IYO? He already forgave sins and offered grace didn't he?
 

Mendalla

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Well I guess what I'm saying is, didn't God and Jesus teach and offer grace before the crucifixion? And if that's true, then what was Jesus' purpose to walk into being crucified IYO? He already forgave sins and offered grace didn't he?
To show the power of Grace to an unbelieving world, perhaps? Perhaps he is making a statement that not only can God's Grace overcome sin, it can overcome Death itself. It does mean Jesus putting a lot of faith in God, but he showed that all through his ministry, save a rare moment of doubt here and there.
 

ninjafaery

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Part of the journey of a Holy Figure (and there have been many from most traditions over the millenia), is sacrificing their own bodies for eternal life or the continued earthly life. This was always cyclic in nature. As I understand it, the Jesus story is supposed to put an end to such sacrifices once and for all in favour of a symbolic, less formal rite. Humanity was freed from the further need for such sacrifice, either animal or human, unlike the Pagans. That differentiated Christianity from other belief systems . Not sure that the fetishism that ensued around the actual crucifixtion was the point. Again, every story about a Hero like that involved a death and resurrection. On another level though, I get how it points to God using the unchangeable fact of the execution that already existed to show that love wins.
 

unsafe

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My view
I personally believe you all are Missing what made God have to come in the Flesh in the first place ----God Created Human Kind ----Hunan Kind was to live forever ------there was no death in Eden ---Spirits don't ever die -----God was in control and made human kind to fellowship with Him -----there was no sin to atone for and no Spiritual death only Spiritual Life -----God in the flesh was not needed ----


Then Human Kind disobeyed God ----so Human Kind by and through their disobedience created a wedge --a disconnect between God and the first created Christ --Adam-Folks is the first Christ ----Jesus is the Second Adam ---Satan by his deception of the first woman and then her getting the first Christ involved in her deception brought sin in this world -------------this folks was bad news ------as human kind was now in a disconnect mode from their Creator ----Human Kind just brought the Curse on themselves -----The wages of sin is Spiritual Death -------so there was no hope for spiritual life for any human kind once the first Christ disobeyed God ----

Is that that way we really wanted things to end for all Human kind -----I would hope not -----all would have gone to Spiritual torment ----there would be no choice involved in that destination ----we were all doomed -----


God's Love and Grace of wanting a way for sinful man to reconnect to Him and give the chance of Spiritual life to those who want it was the reason Jesus was sent ------and yes Jesus had to shed His blood to atone -(Exchange His Righteous Blood) - for our guilt of sin and He had to die to be resurrected to Defeat Spiritual death ----- that was brought on by Adams Disobedience

Now the Blood for God Represents atonement for the soul -----------and notice God tells us what He has given this Blood for in scripture below -----Blood was given to us to serve God's purpose -----

Leviticus 17:11 (AMP)
11 For the ]life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].’


So Human kind caused Jesus to have to come and do what He did -------and we all should be very Grateful and Thankful that God in His great Love and Mercy did what He did ------or we would all be headed for the pit in spiritual death ---as all have sinned -----and come short of God's glory ------God has given His Human kind a choice NOW to choose ---Spiritual life or Spiritual death ---that is Our Choice -----we put ourselves where we want to be ----God did His Part of us -

So to answer this question -----
Did He Really Have to Die the Way He Did?

I say a big Yes -----because of Adam's Big mistake

Now here is the real question -----Do We Have To Die In Spiritual Death ---which is the 2nd death ----------I say No we don't have to ----but ---we can choose to ----
 

unsafe

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Waterfall --my view on the forgiveness of sins Jesus did before the Cross

Jesus forgave sins under the direction of His Father ----Jesus did nothing on His own power --Jesus didn't start His Ministry until the Holy Spirit came upon Him and He did and spoke what His Father wanted Him to ------The forgiveness of sins were for the Healings Jesus did and these were done to Glorify God the Father and to make people believe that Jesus was who He said He was ---

Now their sins that were forgiven for the healings were just for that in my view --------- The people after they were healed would have still sinned --Just like the Saved today still sin -----so these people would have still in my view have to make animal sacrifices to atone for their sins committed after their healing ------Jesus was alive here so no atonement was made to forgive all sin for all time until Jesus shed His Righteous Blood to obtain that -----


All people who were healed had Faith in Jesus and believed that He could heal them so they believed He was the foretold Messiah ---So the right Faith was involved here ------and the Right Faith comes by hearing the word of God according to scripture ------

Just how I view this
 

Waterfall

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-Jesus was alive here so no atonement was made to forgive all sin for all time until Jesus shed His Righteous Blood to obtain that -----
So now today, you, yourself, never have to pray to God to forgive your sins ever again?
 

unsafe

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Waterfall --------why would I pray to God to forgive my sins when Jesus died and took all sin with Him on the Cross ------I will still sin but God does not charge sin against me -----when I sin --I acknowledge I have transgressed to God and I ask for Grace to keep me from trangressing again ------When you receive Jesus in your heart ---you will try and not sin because it Grieves the Holy Spirit so this is always in my mind anyway so sin becomes something that I try my best to stay away from --but I do fail at times -----I am better at it now then I use to be as I work very hard to combat the temptation ------it is very difficult to accomplish thought and I will struggle with it till I die ------but God in His Grace puts it aside and my Salvation is secure even when I miss the mark ------you can't hide sin From God ------

This is very important to know for a believer -------God does not charge Sin against a Born Again person -------

Isaiah 43:45 ----- and Hebrews 8:12

Study Bible
The New Covenant
…11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.” 13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.…
Berean Study Bible · Download

Cross References
Isaiah 43:25
I, yes I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and remembers your sins no more.

Treasury of Scripture
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


we don't go to our 2nd death for the sins we commit ----we go to our 2nd death for refusing to receive Jesus in our hearts as our Lord and Saviour ------when Jesus comes back for Judgment ----he separates the sheep --who represent all who have received Jesus in their hearts ----and the goats who represent all who have not received Him as their Lord and Saviour -----

you can read about it here ------
Meaning of separating sheep and goats

 

unsafe

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This is a just a piece I took from the article Posted in the OP ------

My view on this

Because Christ has conquered the grave and death – because Christ lives forevermore – you and I can also live. This is what it means to say that Christ is the first fruits from among the dead.

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.” [1 Cor. 15:20-22]

I say
So we see that This man Keith Giles ----who says he was an ordained Minister and left the church to do his own thing --makes this claim above and uses the Scripture to back up His claim ------and uses Christ being the first fruits among the dead as the reason people can also live -------

This shows The ignorance of this Mans understanding of what this passage is actually saying --and the danger in telling people that because Jesus is the first fruits of those who are asleep all people can also live -----

This is absolutely a False Teaching of what this scripture is actually saying -------The scripture says death came by man ----Adam ---the curse of disobedience -----NOW ---- this is what the Scripture really says ------so also in Christ all will be made alive.------

Pastor Keith is not telling us we have to Be IN Christ -----you have to have Christ in you ---be Born Again -----receive Jesus in your heart to be made alive in Christ -------anyone who is not in Christ --it says --- For as in Adam all die,

And there is no mention of the 2nd death by this Keith Giles ----all humans will die but then all in Adam will die a Spiritual Departure from God forever -----all by their own choice -----


Such dangerous preaching -----Perfect example of an Ordained Minister taking Scripture and Twisting it to suit his own agenda ----teaching what he wants and not what the scripture is really conveying -------not caring where his people end up in their end -----very sad ----just my view
 

revjohn

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Waterfall said:
Well I guess what I'm saying is, didn't God and Jesus teach and offer grace before the crucifixion?
Grace was taught and grace was offered. Despite that, the wages of sin are still death. People still sin the wages are still to be paid. Something more needed to be done.

Waterfall said:
And if that's true, then what was Jesus' purpose to walk into being crucified IYO?
The cycle can repeat or the cycle must be broken. Previously the response to repeated sin was repeated sacrifice. Wages paid out pay period after pay period so to speak. What was required was one massive payout that could cover all sin. You and I weren't up to that task because we are, all things considered, finite. God being infinite could wrap all those paydays into one and pay-out all outstanding balances. Which is where Christ comes in. Fully human and fully divine. He can take all that God dishes out being God in the flesh.

Waterfall said:
He already forgave sins and offered grace didn't he?
God has no past and no future, dwelling only in the eternal now has decided to forgive. Wages must still be paid out and Jesus takes the lump sum option that we could not. We, bound by time and space as creatures set in a time and a place need that payment to happen in our realm which is governed by time and place so we can point to a specific time and a particular place and say that it has happened. The grace inherent in that action has the ability to reach backwards and forwards through time so that all people God wills to be saved are indeed saved.
 

GeoFee

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“The wage of sin is death.”

God loves the world and all of its peoples. They were one people in God’s sight until pride divided them. That division is overcome in Christ and the unity of God and humanity restored.

The book of Revelations indicates that the whole world is in bondage to the fear. In Christ that fear is overcome. Christ makes clear that death puts behind us all that contradicts the way of God. Jesus walks in this way and suffers a terrible death. This by the will of political and religious personalities dedicated to the pursuit of power.

“Multitudes in the valley of decision.”

As it was then, so it is now.
 
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Luce NDs

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Subtleties of leviathan are in the tomes! Thus the lizard brain descends ... to some it is the enigma of schitz!
 

BetteTheRed

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Hunan Kind was to live forever ------there was no death in Eden
Could you explain this to me, unsafe? If there was no death, how could there ever have been birth? Earth was to have been completely uninhabited, except by two humans in a relatively small garden? This doesn't make any sense to me as a "Creation story", which is what the Genesis myths are.
 
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