Born Again

[chansen]

Usually, falling is a bad thing. Not here.

 

[paradox3]

Usually, falling is a bad thing. Not here.

I wonder if anyone ever identifies as having "fallen away" or if this is a judgement others make.

Are fallen away persons more likely to say they have deconverted? Or perhaps that they have lost interest in religion?

 

[Jae]

I wonder if anyone ever identifies as having "fallen away" or if this is a judgement others make.

Are fallen away persons more likely to say they have deconverted? Or perhaps that they have lost interest in religion?

I'd say normatively the latter. They have no more real interest in the things of Christ.

 

[Luce NDs]

Fallen has to do with the lo' sense of love ... when thoughts rise up on dark wings and take off!

Ah elle 've a state for people that like to focus intelligence ... to a point that is toxic to passions ...

That alternate viper!

 

[revjohn]

I think we are all missing the boat here.

Some very clearly are yes.

The boat is more behavioural than it is theological. Though there is a smidge of bad theology in the mix.

I also suspect that there are some communications deficiencies complicating the discussion.

Theological is easier to sort out.

Whether one uses the language of "Born Again", "Born from Above", "New Creation", "Regeneration", or something else all point to an encounter with Christ via the Holy Spirit which has changed them in some way.

Some understand the change to ne immediate and dramatic, others find it takes place over time and others describe a combination of both.

In general terms the change is for the better and those who have experienced it generally can articulate what about them has changed.

While some do evidence some immediate change in their person there is not always an immediate change in their behaviour.

Being Born Again doesn't mean the newborn babe in Christ doesn't have a lot of maturing to do.

This is where the behavioural stuff comes in.

Unless we were born into and raised inside of families that were perfectly adjusted we have grown to think that our "normal" behaviours are healthy even though outside observers would say otherwise.

Christians are not immune to that conditioning effect.

Often the new Born Again is surrounded by a specific community. Learns to talk the way the community talks and learns to think the way the community thinks and that becomes their new "normal" which will be considered healthy until some kind of personal epiphany occurs.

Since I know myself better than any other here let me share what I am talking about.

As a young man I had a lot of anger. Most of it was family of origin stuff and the implied normal simply did not work for me even though I continued to play by the rules.

The fact that promised rewards were constantly never delivered increased the anger and not being permitted to express that anger exacerbated the issue.

My "Born Again" moment came in the midst of a lot of personal pain and confusion where I did something which went against our family rules in a number if ways. Nothing illegal but for my family of origin I went way outside of the bounds.

While I "felt" something immediately I didn't notice anything immediately.

I still had to contend with the same crap and the same people pulling the same crap of their own and I still lived in the same family where all the crap existed for ages.

I couldn't live that way and as I moved into a new understanding I saw old unhealthy ways that I was no longer interested in honouring and protecting.

Most of that was behavioural. Theology simply offered another perspective from which to critique what I was already critical about.

I did belong to a faith community at the time it was not particularly rigid so I was not restricted in Christian thought I could access.

Where most of my community of faith were Wesleyan my family of origin had been Presbyterian. I began to read from both camps while studying scripture and it was the Reformed perspective of Presbyterianism which I believe did a better job of explaining the Biblical texts.

When I got a chance to study in a Reformed Christian environment I jumped at it.

It was difficult because Calvinists, like any other group of people, have gems and turds in the mix.

I've met both.

Heck, on occasion I've been both.

I don't think that I am any less angry today. Those wounds run deep and there are some who casually tear the wounds open again and again and again. Not because they are malicious. They continue to play the game as they normally do.

My theological sensitivities provides me with healthy ways to deal with anger apart from pretending I am not and bottling it up.

So I can vent rather than explode.

If folk think that is me being patient and mature that is to my benefit.

My being "Born Again" is not an excuse for me to behave badly. Based on Observation there are some who are proudly "Born Again" who do use it as an excuse for poor behaviour.

That may be a result if their own immaturity in Christ or, it may be the result of what is normalized in their faith community.

As clergy I get to experience a number of congregations fairly intimately. All have strengths and all have weaknesses. None would see them as anything but normal even the ones that are behaviourally unhealthy.

Some are easier to minister to and with than others.

"Born Again" certainly has some baggage attached to it. My experience is that most of that baggage is attached because of those who use it as an excuse.

In that case it will not matter how many times the individual is "born again" it will matter how often it is used to justify poor behaviour.

 

[Luce NDs]

Some very clearly are yes.

The boat is more behavioural than it is theological. Though there is a smidge of bad theology in the mix.

I also suspect that there are some communications deficiencies complicating the discussion.

Theological is easier to sort out.

Whether one uses the language of "Born Again", "Born from Above", "New Creation", "Regeneration", or something else all point to an encounter with Christ via the Holy Spirit which has changed them in some way.

Some understand the change to ne immediate and dramatic, others find it takes place over time and others describe a combination of both.

In general terms the change is for the better and those who have experienced it generally can articulate what about them has changed.

While some do evidence some immediate change in their person there is not always an immediate change in their behaviour.

Being Born Again doesn't mean the newborn babe in Christ doesn't have a lot of maturing to do.

This is where the behavioural stuff comes in.

Unless we were born into and raised inside of families that were perfectly adjusted we have grown to think that our "normal" behaviours are healthy even though outside observers would say otherwise.

Christians are not immune to that conditioning effect.

Often the new Born Again is surrounded by a specific community. Learns to talk the way the community talks and learns to think the way the community thinks and that becomes their new "normal" which will be considered healthy until some kind of personal epiphany occurs.

Since I know myself better than any other here let me share what I am talking about.

As a young man I had a lot of anger. Most of it was family of origin stuff and the implied normal simply did not work for me even though I continued to play by the rules.

The fact that promised rewards were constantly never delivered increased the anger and not being permitted to express that anger exacerbated the issue.

My "Born Again" moment came in the midst of a lot of personal pain and confusion where I did something which went against our family rules in a number if ways. Nothing illegal but for my family of origin I went way outside of the bounds.

While I "felt" something immediately I didn't notice anything immediately.

I still had to contend with the same crap and the same people pulling the same crap of their own and I still lived in the same family where all the crap existed for ages.

I couldn't live that way and as I moved into a new understanding I saw old unhealthy ways that I was no longer interested in honouring and protecting.

Most of that was behavioural. Theology simply offered another perspective from which to critique what I was already critical about.

I did belong to a faith community at the time it was not particularly rigid so I was not restricted in Christian thought I could access.

Where most of my community of faith were Wesleyan my family of origin had been Presbyterian. I began to read from both camps while studying scripture and it was the Reformed perspective of Presbyterianism which I believe did a better job of explaining the Biblical texts.

When I got a chance to study in a Reformed Christian environment I jumped at it.

It was difficult because Calvinists, like any other group of people, have gems and turds in the mix.

I've met both.

Heck, on occasion I've been both.

I don't think that I am any less angry today. Those wounds run deep and there are some who casually tear the wounds open again and again and again. Not because they are malicious. They continue to play the game as they normally do.

My theological sensitivities provides me with healthy ways to deal with anger apart from pretending I am not and bottling it up.

So I can vent rather than explode.

If folk think that is me being patient and mature that is to my benefit.

My being "Born Again" is not an excuse for me to behave badly. Based on Observation there are some who are proudly "Born Again" who do use it as an excuse for poor behaviour.

That may be a result if their own immaturity in Christ or, it may be the result of what is normalized in their faith community.

As clergy I get to experience a number of congregations fairly intimately. All have strengths and all have weaknesses. None would see them as anything but normal even the ones that are behaviourally unhealthy.

Some are easier to minister to and with than others.

"Born Again" certainly has some baggage attached to it. My experience is that most of that baggage is attached because of those who use it as an excuse.

In that case it will not matter how many times the individual is "born again" it will matter how often it is used to justify poor behaviour.

The problem is with the haggadah and how this is sold in the bazaar! Is there nothing more alien than the psyche ... a spirit blasphemed by many as critical intelligence about our desires are ... expected to be rejected ... falls Nous from the tree ... don't mention it! With enough string story something will be hung in the entanglement ...