An Hypothetical.

Pavlos Maros

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An Hypothetical.

Lets say that god makes a worldwide announcement, telling everyone that hell has been permanently closed. and that no one will go there ever again. everybody regardless of whether they believe or not will go to heaven even if they sin against him or break the laws of man.

Without the threat of punishment would you still worship that god?

And please don't think I'm assuming that all theists who worship God, do so for fear of going to hell.
It is consistent with human nature. When justice breaks down so do the populous.
 

Mendalla

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Well, for starters, that's just universalism in a nutshell, save that for universalists it is not a sudden announcement. It's been that way from the beginning and the announcement was more of revelation of that reality through the person of Jesus (and other prophets) bringing the message of God's love.

I, personally, don't worship or non worship a deity based on heaven/hell theology anyhow. For me, when I am in my more theistic moments, it's more about a sense of presence, a sense that this thing called existence of which I am a part is personal and reaching out to me. Of course, that's based on a lot more than just my Christian background. It's mashup of various religious readings and theological ideas that I have encountered over the past 35 or so years.
 

Northwind

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I think I must be universalist. I've had problems with the idea of worshipping a deity in the first place. This feeling has been around for a while now. I am with Mendalla where I feel presence or a sense of connection.

I suppose my view has been coloured by seeing the damage done by religions with legalistic beliefs.
 

Pavlos Maros

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For me, it's really not Hell that holds my belief in God together, it's Grace.
Isn't Grace mercy, rather then merit. Grace isn't about getting what your deserve but it's about getting what you don't deserve. You live by the grace of god. If we lived in the same way the serial killer should be set free.
 

Luce NDs

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If hell was taken away ... life of action and reaction would end ... sort of an open ended conception?

I got an image of Stonehenge today on FB ... with a bunch or circular transoms all connected as thresholds to something else again ... a world of hate without the connections within?

Then there are desexed chickens and bum steers ... and other nubian hoards that are drawn into non-emotional alchemii by excessive fear of the greatest sorts of tyrants ...

No names listed as required in anti nominalism! A pile of words to outline unjust naivete-E as a fete'sh!

Have you mist ID? Could be the shadow presentation ...
 

Waterfall

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Isn't Grace mercy, rather then merit. Grace isn't about getting what your deserve but it's about getting what you don't deserve. You live by the grace of god. If we lived in the same way the serial killer should be set free.
That's a very limited understanding of freedom.
 

Mendalla

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If we lived in the same way the serial killer should be set free.
On the social level, we need to protect people. Locking up the serial killer or otherwise neutralizing them as a threat is likely the most effective way to accomplish that. That doesn't mean we are passing judgement on them on a spiritual level or condemning them to "Hell". It means we are passing judgement on their actions and their ability to live in society in a way that ensures the safety of others. We will often call them "evil" but if their actions are the result of some kind of illness, is that really true? Are we really morally capable of deciding the line between "evil" and "broken", between guilt and innocence? If we knew that answer with absolute moral certainty, then capital punishment would be far less debatable. We would punish the evil ones and fix the broken ones. But we don't have that, so we have less perfect solutions and capital punishment carries the risk of us punishing when we should be fixing.

In the traditional concept of God (not necessarily what I believe in, to be clear), spiritual/moral judgement rests with God. If God is not condemning the serial killer to burn in Hell, then God must know something we don't because God makes and enforces the moral order. And that's fair. In this worldview, on the spiritual level, God is the expert. God also knows guilt and innocence on a level we don't. Again, that means if God makes the decision to put the serial killer in Heaven, God knows what God is doing. There must be more to that person than we see or know. There must be more to all of us than we see or know, then, if one takes the universalist position. That's why grace-based salvation challenges us. It tells us God's idea of who is to be saved is based on God's judgement, not ours. Just because we condemn someone or jail them for our safety, doesn't mean God condemns them.

So our jailing the serial killer does not tie God's hands when it comes to their "final judgement". God's wisdom trumps ours and if God holds that person can be saved, that's largely for us to accept. Assuming, of course, that's your vision of God.
 

Luce NDs

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We are best served by false sociopaths that have appeared to have healed ... a quirk that will drive us to peer deeper into the enigma ... that's where we are ... don't know much of the illness of the social sole!

Maybe because it is an integral and not individualized adequately in the learning curve ... thus we slide ...

Hypothetical failure of a prototype? There are those folks that do not believe the prototype can improve with education and experience ... thus the duncan to prove they're wrong ... you know when coming up on the other side ... evolutionary perspective! Some cannot get it because of their belief in seizures ... bung'd ...
 

Pavlos Maros

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That's a very limited understanding of freedom.
It has got nothing to do with freedom in fact grace is the opposite of freedom. Christians receive forgiveness according to god’s grace. Grace brings salvation for all people, teaching them to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions. If you limit what you do you are not free.
 

Luce NDs

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Grace is a given ... with some understanding in stony forms that they don;t give and inch ... resembling compassionate religion that is all locked up!
 

Luce NDs

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And the answer to the hypothetical is no.
You do realize the hypothetical is underneath the hype of theo's is? Thus it isn't as you wished ... only an underlying support! Lesser chit ... use caution on what's under foot or small fete! Could disturb your desires ...

Emotional folk are driven as gords in desire ... something to be cracked ...
 

Waterfall

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It has got nothing to do with freedom in fact grace is the opposite of freedom. Christians receive forgiveness according to god’s grace. Grace brings salvation for all people, teaching them to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions. If you limit what you do you are not free.
Gods grace sets us free.
 

Mrs.Anteater

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Freedom is the the ability to chose your responsibilities. Grace is the open possibility to change your choices at any time, bearing the consequences but not having to bear a crushing judgement.
 
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