What are "miracles?" Should they be viewed as a normative part of Christian experience?

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On the other hand,



So there's more than just asking. Sounds like it has to be a genuine need rather than just testing. Which would make it rather hard to do a controlled experiment.
Good point.....but what would be the need to make a mountain fall into the sea?
 
[RitaFee, Bruce Carlson and Bruce Van Natta didn't know each other at the time when Carlson drove up to Wisconsin to perform a healing miracle on Van Natta.]

GeoFee ducks Paul's foundational teaching expressed in (1)-(7) below and myopically expresses his preference for Paul's love chapter in 1 Corinthians 13. What George overlooks is the obvious reason why Paul sandwiches chap. 13 between 2 chapters on the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul makes it clear that his "more excellent way" is precisely the way to exercise the power gifts of the Spirit! Indeed, he
continues to discuss speaking in tongues and prophesying in 13:1-2, 8-10 and concludes with the command: "Pursue love and earnestly strive for spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy (14:1)." Paul's miracle-based stress on the work of the Holy Spirit in creating converts represents his fulfillment of Jesus' promise in John 14:12:

"Truly, truly I tell you, the one who believes in me will also perform the works that I do and, in fact, will perform greater works than these because I go to my Father."

So I double-down on my 7 points below that demonstrate that the frequent UCCan denial of an interventionist God betrays appalling ignorance of Paul's foundational Gospel message:

(1) Paul has churches like UCCan in mind when he sadly refers to churches "having an outward form of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid them (2 Timothy 3:5)."

(2) Paul warns Galatian Judaizers of the danger of abandoning a Spirit-empowered spirituality that includes miracles:
"Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing?...Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"

(3) Progressive churches like to link the kingdom of God with the pursuit of social justice. This has merit, but is sadly myopic. Jesus associates the coming kingdom with a supernatural display of power:
"Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power (Mark 9:1)."

(4) Paul embraces Jesus' prediction and repudiates a spirituality that does not primarily identify the presence of the kingdom of God with displays of divine power:
"But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God] talk, but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."

(5) In fact, Paul credits his conversion of the Gentiles in part to "signs and wonders," that is, displays of divine power:
"I will not speak of anything, except what Christ has accomplished through me to win obedience from the Gentiles by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God (Romans 15:18-19)."

(6) Paul reminds the Corinthians that real faith in the Gospel should be sealed by "a demonstration of the Spirit and of power" and should rest on that: "My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."

(7) Paul's stress on the value of speaking in tongues is apparently lost on Jon. Paul says: "I want you all to speak in tongues...I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you (1 Corinthians 14:5, 18)." This high regard for speaking in tongues is not refuted by Paul's preference for ecstatic prophesying in corporate worship. btw, prophesying involves much more than "inspired forthtelling," but that is another subject. Anti-tongues moderns forget that Paul's criticism of Corinthian speaking in tongues is prompted by their inauthentic practice of this gift and, more specifically, by the fact that they permit speaking in uninterpreted tongues during corporate worship at which outsiders may be present who are offended by this gibberish. My own experience of speaking in tongues at age 16 is by far the highlight of my life and I doubt that a natural skeptic like me would even be a Christian today without that experience.
 
So there's more than just asking. Sounds like it has to be a genuine need rather than just testing. Which would make it rather hard to do a controlled experiment.
Go to any hospital. The problem would be vetting those who "truly" believe from those who secretly think it's all ridiculous.
 
Mountain-moving is a standard image used in rabbinic Judaism to refer to seemingly insurmountable problems. One of the distinctives of Jesus' pedagogical style (and a major component of his wit) is His use of Semitic hyperbole to make His teaching memorable and to make His audience think. Jesus and the Bible identify several conditions for effective petitionary prayer that need to be the subject of future posts.
 
Thus ascended pitties ... as ceded?

Then there are dung beetles with their role in the turnovers! No crap ...
 
Is love responsible?

Can someone tell me as consequence of responsible love that there is a law that disallows for prosecution of a crime of passion?

Can this allow for some passionate tyrants to get away with murder on the street of penthe ... an panta touche? No pensive orders allowed ...

Is this peculiar circumstance or pure chance ... quantum? Bumps in a dark pastoral aria or field of sad song!
 
@Mystic, what do you say when some believe that miracles ended with the apostles?
Jesus said the apostles were baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to perform miracles such as speaking in tongues (Acts 2:4), healing the sick (Acts 3:6-8), raising the dead (Acts 9:36-41) and preaching by direct inspiration (John 14:26) and then there's Acts 1:8.
Since then, no one has been baptized in the spirit, only by water. Mathew 3:11 tells us that only the saviour can administer a baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire......therefore only the apostles received a holy spirit baptism and everyone since has been baptized in water. This enabled the apostles to perform miracles and only they could pass the gift to others, but those who received this gift from an apostle,could not pass it on, (eg Philip the Evangelist could do miracles but could not pass this gift on)......and this is why these miracles of Jesus and the apostles were written down, because after that there was no need for further miracles. (John 20:30-31) No one in modern day has been able to repeat these miracles since.
And who can speak in tongues today like the apostles did in their day?
Can those who claim to speak tongues speak in any language without first studying it and learning it? Can you yourself go to a foreign country and instantly preach their language through the Holy Spirit without knowing what you're saying? (1 Corinthians 14:22)Mostly what I hear now is gibberish and not a language that any earthling would recognize as a familiar language or could be interpreted, making it a waste of time.

This would provide a way to determine a false prophet because a false prophet would not be able to repeat any of Jesus' or the apostles miracles. (1 John 4:1), which included repairing a severed appendage, speaking in tongues, raising someone from the dead, causing a lame man to walk that was disfigured from his mother's wound, etc.....
 
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APP ostles were ancient origins of modern tongues ...

Ostlers were critical elements ... no, not jest hustlers! More of the immaterial that we don't know ... ghostly or at least haunting old words!

With limited vocabularies there is so much mist and clouds ... consider James Joyce and his range of 65 languages and dialects ... a hated image of an artist! Such is the katz following ... sometimes a wake!
 
Some think that there is only one way to follow and serve God. I will agree that only by faith can we realize the presence and work of God within and through us. I do not agree with the presumption that there is only one way of serving God. This based on the apostle's realization that there is one spirit expressed in a diversity of ways. I may express my relationship with God in a manner not acceptable to others. This does nothing to diminish my relationship with God and with any neighbour met along the way. This including those who disagree with me on what scripture says and encourages.

"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many." 1 Corinthians 12:4-14
For example: Paul speaks about the gift of tongues. This rooted in the anointing of the apostolic community, where all who were present to witness the event understood the words spoken by the apostles. Each in his or her own language. God has given me the ability to speak to beggars on the street as well as professors in universities. I am able to use language to communicate grace to whomever I encounter along the way God has given me to travel towards spiritual maturity. Like Paul, I have not yet obtained the fulness of my potential for sharing God's grace. All who know me well are aware that I have come a long way from where I started at the age of thirty.
 
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Some think that there is only one way to follow and serve God. I will agree that only by faith can we realize the presence and work of God within and through us. I do not agree with the presumption that there is only one way of serving God. This based on the apostle's realization that there is one spirit expressed in a diversity of ways. I may express my relationship with God in a manner not acceptable to others. This does nothing to diminish my relationship with God and with any neighbour met along the way. This including those who disagree with me on what scripture says and encourages.

"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many." 1 Corinthians 12:4-14
For example: Paul speaks about the gift of tongues. This rooted in the anointing of the apostolic community, where all who were present to witness the event understood the words spoken by the apostles. Each in his or her own language. God has given me the ability to speak to beggars on the street as well as professors in universities. I am able to use language to communicate grace to whomever I encounter along the way God has given me to travel towards spiritual maturity. Like Paul, I have not yet obtained the fulness of my potential for sharing God's grace. All who know me well are aware that I have come a long way from where I started at the age of thirty.

It is a kind of dark web ... like spidery and good for entangling human bugs! They can't see it coming ... blind faith?
 
Waterfall,

Jesus' promise of Spirit baptism (Acts 1:5) is fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (2:4). but Peter then extends that promise of Spirit baptism to all believers everywhere in future ages: "...you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit...For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Him (Acts 2:38-39)."

Paul makes it clear that charismatic or spiritual gifts will continue until Christ's Second coming which Paul calls "the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ:" "...you are not lacking in any spiritual gift as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:7-8)." That is also the sense of Paul's claim that speaking in tongues and prophesying will only cease "when the complete comes...when we will see [Him] face to face (13:8-10).."
Modern Christian cessationists misinterpret Paul's comment here to mean that speaking in tongues and prophesying will continue only until the completion of the New Testament canon! No modern book commentary on 1 Corinthians agrees with this claim.

Your questions about modern vs. the original speaking in tongues require a complex answer and a separate thread, which I will now consider starting in the not too distant future. For now just let me say that I am so naturally skeptical that I probably wouldn't even be a Christian today, were it not for by far the happiest, most electrifying, and most life-changing day of my life, the day at age 16 that I received the gift of tongues at a Pelican Lake retreat center near Ninette, Manitoba. There is scarcely a day that passes when I don't draw inspiration and spiritual nourishment from the memory of that incredibly awesome day. I will describe that day in my next post on my Journey thread.
 
For now just let me say that I am so naturally skeptical that I probably wouldn't even be a Christian today, were it not for by far the happiest, most electrifying, and most life-changing day of my life, the day at age 16 that I received the gift of tongues at a Pelican Lake retreat center near Ninette, Manitoba.
There are no words.
 
Some think knowing about God is rooted in the correct rendering of chapter and verse. Others think it is about character. Then there are those who say God is love. And those who say... … …
 
Some think knowing about God is rooted in the correct rendering of chapter and verse. Others think it is about character. Then there are those who say God is love. And those who say... … …

I like those 3 dot 'd gaps in the systemic abstract! Unknown holes ... 9 altogether like a gathering of muses ...

Its beyond me ...
 
Waterfall,

Jesus' promise of Spirit baptism (Acts 1:5) is fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (2:4). but Peter then extends that promise of Spirit baptism to all believers everywhere in future ages: "...you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit...For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Him (Acts 2:38-39)."

In Acts, isn't Jesus only speaking to the apostles with regards to spirit baptism?

And if there is only one baptism as Paul stated, why do we continue to do water baptism?
Are you saying there are two baptisms? One by water and one by the Holy spirit? Or are you saying we only do Spirit baptisms now?

I know we do baptize with water in the NAME of the father, son and holy spirit....but is that the same as the actual Holy Spirit baptizing us?
 
my view
Water baptism now is usually requested by an individual as a way of them professing their faith in Jesus ---it is an outward speaking of Faith ---faith in action ----Water Baptism was never a way to receive salvation ---it was for repentance which is a mind change only in John The Baptist's time ---John the Baptise was preparing people to be able to be saved---- it was their profession of Faith that they believed the Messiah was coming to save people ----no one in the Old Testament had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ---this only happened when Jesus died ------

We are Baptised now by the Holy Spirit -----Acts 1:5-----
English Standard Version
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
 
Water baptism now is usually requested by an individual as a way of them professing their faith in Jesus ---it is an outward speaking of Faith ---faith in action ----Water Baptism was never a way to receive salvation

So is baptism strictly optional, then? A nice to have that does not really make a difference in the big picture? To be clear, I am speaking spiritually here. I do realize that in terms of practice, it is part of joining/being welcomed into most Christian churches at some point, whether as an infant or adult.

(Yeah, off topic, but that seems to be the way of this thread :rolleyes: )
 
I was first baptized as an infant. At thirty I chose to be baptized by immersion. For me this signified death to the way of the world and resurrection to the way of God. That same day I was anointed by the Holy Spirit. This giving me the authority to live a life of freedom, responsibility, creativity and courage. Now I live in the name of God which cannot be pronounced. None of this, for me, having anything to do with institutional religion.
 
my view
Water Baptism is optional today for a profession of one's Spiritual Faith ------Spiritual Baptism is required to be saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit a person is not Heaven bound and is actually away from God according to scripture ---the only access to God now is to receive His Son ---if we reject God the Son we reject God the Father as the 2 are one ----and that is scriptural ----1John 2:23 ----
Good News Translation
For those who reject the Son reject also the Father; those who accept the Son have the Father also.
 
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