Open letter from Richard and Nora

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paradox3 said:
If anyone is bothered by the line that was included and/ or the lines that were excluded from the letter, they could try contacting Richard or Nora. Rumor has it Richard is quite responsive on FB. I don't know about Nora.

Their email addresses are also available on the United Church website.
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I'm not bothered by it. I don't even care about the letter particularly. I have zero - literally zero - interest in the new structure. I plan to have as little to do with it as possible and I plan to be content as the pastor of my congregation. The excised quote just reminds me of the lectionary and how biblical passages are often excised in it - not just to make them shorter, but usually with obvious theological rationale. Often what's cut out is more interesting than what's put in.
 
paradox3 said:
My read of this is that the leadership in our denomination is being encouraged to turn its mind from the restructuring and back onto why we are here.
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I think this captures it well - why and how are we communities faith in our neighbourhoods?
 
revsdd said:
I like Richard. I really do. But I don't believe for a moment "that these changes were meant to allow us to ... deepen our faith and theological convictions and put our faith into action in the world.”
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Yeah. That part is a bit weak.

The changes were fiscally motivated. That was made clear in the run-up to launching the comprehensive review. Unsurprisingly many voices in the denomination chose to ignore the actual issue and invent new solutions to imagined problems. So language stating that the changes are all about this and that other than finances has been around since Comprehensive Review began.

I imagine it would be easy to forget that if you didn't have enough cynics around to point it out.

I think that Richard understands that well enough. At the same time the position calls for some cheerleading and that is what this amounts to.

Beyond that is quite a bit of subtext. Those with ears to hear . . .
 
revsdd said:
If Richard and Nora were going to quote A New Creed, why excise it?
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Technically they do not quote A New Creed, they quote from it. If they had quoted the whole creed and excised select lines that would be far more sinister. And since A New Creed is now one of the Doctrinal Statements of the denomination will we suggest sinister intent if they only quote from it and don't throw in everything from 1925, 1940 and the Song of Faith?

revsdd said:
What point is being made by doing so?
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I think that Richard and Nora would be best placed to answer that. I do not suspect sinister motivation.

revsdd said:
What we leave out can say as much as what we put in.
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True enough.

Since the letter is also to Ministry Personnel and Leaders within the denomination I trust most of us were able to identify the source material and perhaps even complete the creed from there. If they are able to provoke that memory in us have they excised anything?

We joke about the ingrained response to, "May the Lord be with you" while ignoring for a moment that the automatic response indicates how successfully we have integrated that portion of the liturgy into our very being.

Richard is nothing if he is not liturgically minded.
 
I may be wrong but the very Christian language of this letter seem to reaffirm the UCCan as a Christian church - and it even states it's in the Reformed tradition. A rapprochement to the orthodoxy, maybe, after all the GV thing?
 
GiancarloZ said:
I may be wrong but the very Christian language of this letter seem to reaffirm the UCCan as a Christian church - and it even states it's in the Reformed tradition.
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I do not think you are wrong in your reading of the letter.

GiancarloZ said:
A rapprochement to the orthodoxy, maybe, after all the GV thing?
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It would seem so.
 
Jae said:
Is it after the GV thing though? What I mean is, is the GV thing now over?
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Well, a particular chapter has come to an end. Will there be another chapter? Eventually. Who will write it? TBD.

Jae said:
She remains in her pulpit.
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Birds in guilded cages and all.
 
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Even if the case has been administratively solved, the sociological/theological questions arising from it remain. I imagine the letter, among other things, seem to answer to those questions.
 
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GiancarloZ said:
Even if the case has been administratively solved, the sociological/theological questions arising from it remain. I imagine the letter, among other things, seem to answer to those questions.
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That was my take as well, but I thought others would disagree. There is a lot of lip service being paid to the whole "we are still a believing Christian Church" thing. And I assume that is because people are still calling and writing in about Rev. Vosper because, again, they are embarrassed.
 
chansen said:
That was my take as well, but I thought others would disagree. There is a lot of lip service being paid to the whole "we are still a believing Christian Church" thing. And I assume that is because people are still calling and writing in about Rev. Vosper because, again, they are embarrassed.
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There is a saying that the mind has conflicts, and the church appears to have conflicts ... the only thing without conflict is the Trump type desire that just states what's right without question and destroys all else ... not at all like that ideal of creation and construction that ... appears to be something beyond real people of war and their power trips, etc.

In the meantime something of the mean medium ... seems to have gone down the toilet with some stories that speak of the Rivers of Paris ... Tale of Two Cities, Les Miserables ... is there something to that s**t ... that would give some fecundity to the Tao of Po'?

Consider it an abstract item ... like an abstract conscience in offices of high power? The references are something else ...
 
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revsdd said:
I like Richard. I really do. But I don't believe for a moment "that these changes were meant to allow us to ... deepen our faith and theological convictions and put our faith into action in the world.”

Or maybe I'm just getting cynical in my advancing years.
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If there has been one Moderator worth getting behind, in all the time since WC1, this would be the guy. He talks the talk and invites all to walk the walk. I’m praying for him. I have way faint hope for UCC, but even as I can probably find a lot to disagree with with Bott, Id put him in the top maybe 6 ministers that have appeared on WC who are more than likely actually Christian, and not just putting in time and sucking the little remaining life out of a dying church.
 
chansen said:
Richard is not a nutcase, trying his best not to alienate nutcases. It can't be easy.
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One does have to act a certain way ... just for conformance and orthodoxy that drove Jude's beyond as an opposing power ... and thought be out of here and now (presently)! A phantom of altruism ... spooky ... scares the crap out of ...
 
Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:
and not just putting in time and sucking the little remaining life out of a dying church
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Good way to phrase it, Pontifex Geronimo 13!

So many people say the UCCan is a dying church. Definitely we're changing. Definitely I like a lot of the new changes.
But will they bear fruit?
I for one am excited about the new governance structure. Probably because the new region headquarters is actually far more accessible to me than the former conference office was. My link with regional council has been made stronger by the new geographical boundaries, but I know not everyone else's has been.
But I walked away from my congregation 2 years ago, and then came back after 1 year, because I realized I still wanted (and needed) to be involved. I'm believe that as long as people want to worship together in communities, then the church "won't die." We may lose buildings, and we may lose structure that we've had for generations, and....that's not all bad.
I think that it's important to make options for ourselves before we have no options. I think that's one thing that Richard's and Nora's letter is about. It's encouragement to try the new paths before us, and make options before we have no options. Where will this path ultimately take us? No one knows for sure. There's an Anishinaabe saying "It is in the journey that one comes to understand the territiory. It is in the journey that one becomes wise." I think that saying applies very much to the new paths the UCCan is on right now.
 
Perhaps we'll be like mustard seed ... small dark and entangled distinctly separate from big business, monarchists and organized cults ... a haunting concept for the corrupt powers?
 
Alas @BetteTheRed ... the corrupt powers see us as corrupt in that dark mirror! A sort of projection and poking that some isolated psychologists are contrary to. One should not get into the self too deep ... you know ... bad self examination would take you out from group control plots ... sacred schemes if you know the ambiguity of conspiracies in social republicanism ... a form of avarice and control application ...

If they don;t get control it could be a crisis in their blackheads leading to double squares ... and national emergencies in their dice game ... de Duceus as plural? The people must be denied and eliminated ... thus supporting the Kubler Ross Reciprocal Curve! A depression in the projected image ... illusionary?

Etudes in this line can get complex regardless of the KISS Eire ... very context sensitive depending on the roof of what you're on ... is there a smoke hole?

Combustion technology for those that see something is about to blow out ... like humanity!
 
revjohn said:
Technically they do not quote A New Creed, they quote from it. If they had quoted the whole creed and excised select lines that would be far more sinister. And since A New Creed is now one of the Doctrinal Statements of the denomination will we suggest sinister intent if they only quote from it and don't throw in everything from 1925, 1940 and the Song of Faith?
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Please no. The song of faith would make every communication sooooo big.
 
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